[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well, if they have to they can always run the legacy streetcars on the line and squeeze a few more years out of the platforms before the new deliveries are completed. At least they'd get some value out of a depreciating resource.

AoD

 

[car4041]

wouldn't be surprise but the streetcar line will be shutdown like on Spadina. Bus service on St.clair will make the transit on that avenue a nightmare.

There are two differences between St. Clair and the work done last summer on Spadina.

1. Spadina underwent a large amount of patch-up trackwork up and down the line, which required the line to be shut down. That obviously won't be necessary on St. Clair, since the track is new.

2. The shelters on Spadina actually underwent structural modification: some of the front pillars were removed and new crossbracing was put in to compensate. This won't be required on St. Clair because the shelters don't have front pillars in the first place.

In comparison with these two things, the modifications to the Spadina platforms themselves were pretty minor: the most significant thing was that the concrete was lowered slightly in one small area. And I think this minor change is all that's required on St. Clair?

Well, if they have to they can always run the legacy streetcars on the line and squeeze a few more years out of the platforms before the new deliveries are completed. At least they'd get some value out of a depreciating resource.

AoD

If it's like Spadina, only a small section of the platform will be changed anyway -- just the spot where the ramp will be deployed. It's not major construction we're talking about.

 

[nfitz]

wouldn't be surprise but the streetcar line will be shutdown like on Spadina. Bus service on St.clair will make the transit on that avenue a nightmare.

No need to overthink it. It's gross incompetence from whoever used to be there.

And what if it's just replacing a few pieces of pavement, that is done without any shutdowns?

There's 700 stops requiring modification - I doubt there'll be any shutdowns for most of them.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And what if it's just replacing a few pieces of pavement, that is done without any shutdowns?

There's 700 stops requiring modification - I doubt there'll be any shutdowns for most of them.

Surely you ment 70 stops. There is no way there are 700 stops on St. Clair.

 

[TOareaFan]

Surely you ment 70 stops. There is no way there are 700 stops on St. Clair.

But St. Clair would not be the only line that would need adjustment for the new cars...surely?

 

[nfitz]

Surely you ment 70 stops. There is no way there are 700 stops on St. Clair.

The City news article about this, makes it clear that they've been planning this for a while, that it's budgeted, and the work includes 700 stops where there isn't a platform (presumably none of those stops are on St. Clair! )

 

[Solid Snake]

And what if it's just replacing a few pieces of pavement, that is done without any shutdowns?

That would be a best case scenario, but let's make one thing perfectly clear... As a project manager, not building the shelters longer in the first place was a mistake. Not even having planned for the stops to be longer is inexcusable.

As a project manager, it is your job to at least plan for the future, to prepare for every scenarios to avoid future cost that will most likely be higher than if you would have built them in the first place for cheaper...That's Project Management 101.

Even the Sheppard Line was design that way.The platforms were built so they could be easily extended in the future.

I live on St.Clair and those stops are already too shorts when 2 streetcars are following each other. The second streetcar has to slow down to wait after the first one and take red lights on purpose. Even back then, longer stops were already warranted. The line would have been faster and more efficient.

The TTC coming out today saying "we didn't have the specs of the new streetcar" is just PR but you can be certain that Byford must have been cursing in his office thinking about the idiot who didn't plan for this. Take it in every angles that you want, it's extra cost at the end of the day and that's a black eye for the team who planned St. Clair.

 

[nfitz]

That would be a best case scenario, but let's make one thing perfectly clear... As a project manager, not building the shelters longer in the first place was a mistake. Not even having planned for the stops to be longer is inexcusable.

Longer? Who's saying that? The comments from TTC seem to simply be about the height of the concrete at the stop not quite matching the new ramps. I hadn't seen discussion about the length having to change.

 

[Solid Snake]

length is definitely an issue here. It's obvious...still a screw up. TTC already new the CLRV would have to be replaced in the near future. All you need to do is to look around the world for the type of streetcar being built and research it. That's a project manager's job. In this case, it was obviously not done

 

[nfitz]

length is definitely an issue here.

What's your source for that? The media articles are only talking about height.

TTC already new the CLRV would have to be replaced in the near future. All you need to do is to look around the world for the type of streetcar being built and research it. That's a project manager's job. In this case, it was obviously not done

The issue is the height of the ramp. The new streetcars weren't even ordered until 2 years after some of the St. Clair stops were back in operation ... let alone designed! As far as I know, the ramp height isn't standard from system-to-system.

 

[Solid Snake]

What's your source for that? The media articles are only talking about height.

2 things, my coworker's husband works for the TTC. I already knew all those issues before today including the length of the platform. Second, common sense. If some stops can't or can barely fit 2 CLRV, how on earth do you expect to new ones to fit?

The issue is the height of the ramp. The new streetcars weren't even ordered until 2 years after some of the St. Clair stops were back in operation ... let alone designed! As far as I know, the ramp height isn't standard from system-to-system.

and length... Like I said... Project management is all about planning, and they failed in the planning phase. How drastically did the streetcar we ordered were different from the streetcar that were in service in Europe? The answer is in the question.

I'm not saying St.Clair was a mistake. I'm saying the project management team screw up will cost taxpayers....BTW, it will be more than 58M$

 

[nfitz]

2 things, my coworker's husband works for the TTC. I already knew all those issues before today including the length of the platform.

And yet TTC are saying it's a height issue, not a length issue. Surely first-hand information is better than your third-hand information.

Second, common sense. If some stops can't or can barely fit 2 CLRV, how on earth do you expect to new ones to fit?

Which stops are these? The ones I've seen seem to be about double the length of a CLRV. If they can barely fit 2 CLRV, then they'll fit the new vehicle.

I agree that if they stops are too short, and need to be lengthened, than that's an issue (though looking at a couple of stops, if all they have to is remove some planters and a garbage can, it's hardly the end of the world).

 

[drum118]

That would be a best case scenario, but let's make one thing perfectly clear... As a project manager, not building the shelters longer in the first place was a mistake. Not even having planned for the stops to be longer is inexcusable.

As a project manager, it is your job to at least plan for the future, to prepare for every scenarios to avoid future cost that will most likely be higher than if you would have built them in the first place for cheaper...That's Project Management 101.

Even the Sheppard Line was design that way.The platforms were built so they could be easily extended in the future.

I live on St.Clair and those stops are already too shorts when 2 streetcars are following each other. The second streetcar has to slow down to wait after the first one and take red lights on purpose. Even back then, longer stops were already warranted. The line would have been faster and more efficient.

The TTC coming out today saying "we didn't have the specs of the new streetcar" is just PR but you can be certain that Byford must have been cursing in his office thinking about the idiot who didn't plan for this. Take it in every angles that you want, it's extra cost at the end of the day and that's a black eye for the team who planned St. Clair.

Are you a Project Manger and if "SO", you are wrong on 101?

A project manager is given a set of drawings, description of work to be done, by whom and when as well cost schedule. It is then up to the project manager to bring in the project on time and and on budget as well trying to get it done sooner and under budget. They are to make sure all work meets the standards as well comply with the contracts conditions.

The owner tells the engineers what they want and it up to them to come up with a design to meet the owner idea and cost. They can offer better options if there are in the first place and it is up to the owner to decide to use these options or not.

Since TTC is the owner and they knew longer cars are coming, the platforms should have been built to meet that longer car needs. What TTC wanted in the way of height ended up being wrong, as it could not be met by the builder of the car. A catch 22 case. I was told from day 1 that the platforms where able to handle 100' cars before the line saw construction by TTC.

As for the shelters, it was a city item and cost came into play with TTC having no real say in the matter at the end.

As for locations of stops placement, that was under the control of the city planning engineers who were more interested in traffic than transit. They (Survey Team) laid some of the stops as well tracks in the wrong locations and one reason the tracks between Dufferin and Oakwood were 1.5 ft off set when the final connection was to be made. One reasons for the snake in the tracks to get around all these wrong placement of items and track placement.

At the end of the day TTC did screw some things up as there was a group of TTC personal who want streetcars to disappear in the name of subway.

By the way I have seen 2 streetcars at the same platform at the same time with no issues at the intersection or crosswalk more time enough. I believe I have some photos showing it some where.

Getting longer platforms than 100' was a killer since the traffic engineers/planners opposed it as well cutting away of more sidewalk space.

The black eye is the "CITY TEAM", not TTC, but TTC will get the blame for it since its their line in the first place as well in the public eye.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Check out Steve Munro's rebuttal, at this link:

Steve: The platforms are not at a uniform height to mate with the handicapped access ramp. This is a minor fix which the Sun turned into an anti-St. Clair rant, and the CBC blindly picked up. The specs for the platform height were not known when they were built.

and

Steve: This is NOT true. Thank you Toronto Sun for bad initial reporting, and CBC for further fouling up the message. The problem is with uneven platform heights, not with the cars “fitting†on the platforms. This is not a major retrofit. The CBC article errs in showing a picture of the curb between the right-of-way and the auto lane, not the loading platform, and by repeating the inaccurate claim that the project escalated to $100m when this was thanks to scope creep and utility work unrelated to the TTC part of the project.

 

[Solid Snake]

And yet TTC are saying it's a height issue, not a length issue. Surely first-hand information is better than your third-hand information.

Not interested into arguing over details. Funny I knew about all theses issues before your first-hand source was forced to talk due to the Toronto Star. Length is an issue as well.

I agree that if they stops are too short, and need to be lengthened, than that's an issue (though looking at a couple of stops, if all they have to is remove some planters and a garbage can, it's hardly the end of the world).

I agree, it's not a big job to make them longer. The stops are not missing much in length. The whole point of my argument is that extra cost which will be over 58M$, could have been less than that. My point is "as a project manager" perspective, TTC mismanaged the St.Clair project because they didn't plan it properly.