[reaperexpress]

I agree with Voltz WRT making the 512 more express. The demand along the corridor tends to be local in nature, so the express/local system is probably not best. That said, however, the stop spacing is too short, even for a local line.

Some stops are ridiculously close together, such as:
St. Clair Station - Yonge: 100m
Spadina - Tweedsmuir: 170m
Tweedsmuir - St Clair West: 150m
Bathurst - Vaughan Rd: 160m
Wychwood - Christie: 180m
Northcliffe - Dufferin: 180m

Not even a local service needs such short stop spacing. 300-400m spacing would be fine.
Although some stops are certainly superflous, I think the best action is to wait for the new streetcars and POP before making a fuss about it. Without both measures in place, the benefits of eliminating stops are reduced because it would increase dwell time at the remaining stops.

The exception is the stop at Yonge street. That stop is stupid because it encourages people to board on-street, delaying tons of passengers while they pay their fare, rather than boarding at the adjacent station which has off-vehicle fare collection.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The TTC tried to get rid of some of the stops, but the NIMBY's cried baby tears to keep them in. The same NIMBY's cried about left turns, and got them put in but scarifying sidewalk space in the process, even though the original right-of-way did not have any turn lanes.

 

[Chuck]

I don't disagree with the express streetcar/local bus option. Torononians have gotten very used to slow transit, and therefore can't fathom the concept of express service, be it above or below ground. We tend to say 'give us faster transit', but fail to come up with any good ideas.

A full vehicle is a full vehicle. I wouldn't mind having buses do the milk run, and implement piority signalling to allow streetcars to run at the full speed limit between stops that may be 1-2 km apart, even on St. Clair.

Peope do this when it is part of the transit culture. When you ride the subway in New York, you take a local train to the nearest stop, then go express the rest of the way. Such a concept sounds foreign to us, but millions do it each day. Parisians reconized that their subway stations were too close, so they overlaid an entirely independent underground express network below the level of the original subway lines.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I don't disagree with the express streetcar/local bus option. Torononians have gotten very used to slow transit, and therefore can't fathom the concept of express service, be it above or below ground. We tend to say 'give us faster transit', but fail to come up with any good ideas.

A full vehicle is a full vehicle. I wouldn't mind having buses do the milk run, and implement piority signalling to allow streetcars to run at the full speed limit between stops that may be 1-2 km apart, even on St. Clair.

Peope do this when it is part of the transit culture. When you ride the subway in New York, you take a local train to the nearest stop, then go express the rest of the way. Such a concept sounds foreign to us, but millions do it each day. Parisians reconized that their subway stations were too close, so they overlaid an entirely independent underground express network below the level of the original subway lines.

On the Yonge line, the Subway runs express between Eglinton and Finch, and has local bus service. Unfortunately, the local bus headway is not at the same headway as the Subway, it way worse because few people use the bus.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Express + Local Service comes at a significant cost, as you're paying someone to drive a bus and operate a streetcar/LRT. (Throw a subway line into the mix and the price goes up even further.)

 

[Justin10000]

But as long as people save 2-3 minutes, the cost is worth it.

(Being sarcastic, of course).

 

[Chuck]

But as long as people save 2-3 minutes, the cost is worth it.

(Being sarcastic, of course).

Maybe you shouldn't be sarcastic! For one, it would be more than 2-3 minutes saved if we had more express surface routes in right of ways. Secondly, that comment proves my point exactly: we complain about travel times non stop, but at the same time shrug off ideas to speed things up.

A few minutes saved here and there will cut over 10 minutes from a trip with multiple transfers. 10 minutes saved on a 1 hour commute means a 15-20% reduction in travel time. That means an extra hour and a half at home per work week.

 

[wopchop]

As a resident, I'm pretty happy with the 512, overall.

There are a few stops that could likely be eliminated (probably Vaughan, Wychwood, Winona, Northcliffe) but I don't think it would make a huge difference. The ride from Gunn's to St. Clair West is already pretty quick. But I would also be hesitant about this because even those stops are pretty well-used, and it might just increase dwell times at other stops and not make any difference at all. Personally, I wouldn't eliminate any stops (except maybe Northcliffe!). The biggest problem are the lights. St. Clair simply has too many red lights. Either eliminate some of these (no more crossover for a lot of streets) or install signal priority for the 512.

The street is also benefiting from a new energy. There are people moving here, and investment in the area, that are all contributing to a better St. Clair.

Bring on an extension to Runnymede Loop!

 

[Rainforest]

Maybe you shouldn't be sarcastic! For one, it would be more than 2-3 minutes saved if we had more express surface routes in right of ways. Secondly, that comment proves my point exactly: we complain about travel times non stop, but at the same time shrug off ideas to speed things up.

A few minutes saved here and there will cut over 10 minutes from a trip with multiple transfers. 10 minutes saved on a 1 hour commute means a 15-20% reduction in travel time. That means an extra hour and a half at home per work week.

Wide stop spacing should be reserved for trunk routes, so that many riders transferring from the feeder routes can benefit from the fast ride.

St Clair, on the other hand, is a route with exclusively local function. There is one real trunk route (Bloor) 2 km to the south, and in a few years there should be one more trunk (Eglinton) 2 km to the north.

Running an express / local combination on St Clair would have very little network-wide benefit. It could be of some limited benefit for the people living or working near St Clair only, but the cost of operation such combined service would be disproportionate given that those people already have the advantage of a ROW. Many riders living in other areas don't have that.

 

[Rainforest]

The biggest problem are the lights. St. Clair simply has too many red lights. Either eliminate some of these (no more crossover for a lot of streets) or install signal priority for the 512.

Precisely. A functional signal priority would reduce the travel time without increasing the operating costs (actually, might even reduce them a bit, as the round-trip time decreases and fewer cars are needed to maintain the same frequency).

 

[Palma]

The real shame, I think, is that the ROW was not completed to Scarlett/Dundas or, ideally, beyond.

St. Clair ends at Scarlett so how could they have extended the ROW further west?. Unless they bulldoze through that wall - I am not sure whats on the other side but I imagine streets. Unless you mean go south to Dundas, But then its no longer St. Clair Ave West.

 

[drum118]

Maybe you shouldn't be sarcastic! For one, it would be more than 2-3 minutes saved if we had more express surface routes in right of ways. Secondly, that comment proves my point exactly: we complain about travel times non stop, but at the same time shrug off ideas to speed things up.

A few minutes saved here and there will cut over 10 minutes from a trip with multiple transfers. 10 minutes saved on a 1 hour commute means a 15-20% reduction in travel time. That means an extra hour and a half at home per work week.

That maybe be true to a point.

What does it mean for all the riders, not a few who would benefit from this?

You need to added into your factor, how much more time does this express rider have to spend walking to these express stop compare to the original ones?

You need to add all walking and waiting time to your travel time to see what the real travel time saving is by going express vs. current way. At the same time, what are you doing to the local business by going express vs. current way?

I thought tonight to take a route that could save me time and it ended up costing me an extra 20 minutes by not taking my normal route, where both buses end up at at the same end point.

At the same time you need to look at your rider to see how many riders would be effective but doing the express run. If its only 15-20% of the ridership, not worth it.

Having said that, from an operation point of view, the faster the run comes, less cars/buses you will need on the line to carry the ridership that will improve the bottom line for cost ratio. Overtime, that cost ratio will increase even if you still run express, as that driver is going to cost more to move riders as well the cost of the vehicle per hour will increase.

Saving 2 minutes a day is no real saving to me.

 

[drum118]

St. Clair ends at Scarlett so how could they have extended the ROW further west?. Unless they bulldoze through that wall - I am not sure whats on the other side but I imagine streets. Unless you mean go south to Dundas, But then its no longer St. Clair Ave West.

There have been plans floating around for decades how St Clair would go west of Scarlett Rd. One along Dundas to Kipling/Colverdale, another along Scarlett Rd to the airport, another building a bridge over the Humber and going west or north somewhere.

The one that has the most legs these day is to Kipling, since a ROW will be built in the new Scarlett Rd bridge under CP/GO tracks. The Dundas & Scarlett Rd intersection is to be rebuilt to allow left hand turning onto Dundas off Scarlett.

 

[CDL.TO]

St. Clair has a signal priority system installed and operational.

It's designed to extend the green light for streetcars. The issues with the system installed are:
- Its ability to detect streetcars is limited. The system is only designed to hold a green light after a streetcar has passed through the previous intersection. With the sometimes closely-spaced traffic lights this often doesn't provide enough time for the system to intervene in the cycle and ensure a green light for a streetcar.
- If streetcars get bunched and travel in pairs down the line, it confuses the system.

So, basically the system only increases the likelihood that a streetcar will get a green light, it does not guarantee it.

 

[reaperexpress]

Precisely. A functional signal priority would reduce the travel time without increasing the operating costs (actually, might even reduce them a bit, as the round-trip time decreases and fewer cars are needed to maintain the same frequency).

The cost savings would be more than "a bit". I read in one of the earlier reports on the York University Busway that they expected the cost (then expected to be $35million) to be recovered by the time the subway extension opened, through operating cost reductions and increased ridership. The busway allowed them to pull 4 buses off route 196, while actually increasing frequency and capacity fairly significantly. Viva Orange experienced some cost savings as well through round-trip time reduction.

Time savings from improving the transit priority on St Clair would not be as significant as a suburban BRT implementation, but the cost would be much lower as well.
An easy argument for a signal reprogram could be "Stop wasting taxpayers' money paying drivers to sit at red lights", to conform to the current administration's rhetoric.