micheal_can
Senior Member
I stand corrected.
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- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
I stand corrected.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Forgot about the 512 ST. CLAIR extension to Jane/Scarlett. The 2.7 km stretch between Scarlett Road and Keele Street has 3 (three) separate routes. 512 ST. CLAIR (up to Gunns Loop only), 71A RUNNYMEDE (between Runnymede and Gunns Loop), and 79B SCARLETT ROAD (between Runnymede and Scarlett Road). Two (or three if transferring from 89 WESTON/41 KEELE or 30 LAMBTON/55 WARREN PARK or 35 JANE) (insert angry swear words here) transfers. Unfortunately the non-transit user members on city council and the TTC board don't see it (or will use it).
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Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Honestly, there are so many gaps in the streetcar network that can and should be filled. Streetcars should eventually return to Adelaide/Richmond, Dupont/Davenport, Ossington, Church, Coxwell, Front, Parliament, Jarvis, Bay, etc not just to help increase the network's capacity, but to create redundancy in the system that will remove the need for shuttle buses during closures.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
TTC's policy seems to be that no new streetcar routes get built except in dedicated ROWs, and that basically rules out every single route you mentioned.
wolfewood
Active Member
Such an annoying policy too imo. Rather than address the existing issue (poor route management and low priority for transit vehicles compared to cars), the TTC just accepts that the streetcar network will just stagnate. No point in addressing issues of network connectivity or bringing improved transit to parts of the city that have to rely upon uncomfortable, polluting buses. This attitude would make sense if we didn't have the largest streetcar network in North America but come on - we have the infrastructure and technical know-how already. You'd think sometimes this was Washington or Atlanta and the city's streetcar network was some dinky little line built to gentrify a neighbourhood, not an actual decent network with fixable gaps.
nfitz
Superstar
New route 514 runs in mixed traffic on Dufferin. While tracks have been there for years, there hadn't been regular service on Dufferin since ... gosh, WW2?
DSC
Superstar
I am quite sure that if the TTC and the City were planning a completely new downtown streetcar network today they would not have streetcars running on all the streets and/or in the way they do now. As streets have been made one-way their use as streetcar routes changes and we have both 'unnecessary' and missing sections - in the downtown core. Do we really need four possible westbound streets (Wellington, King, Richmond and Queen) while we only have two running eastbound (King and Queen)? OK, I know Adelaide runs east from Victoria to Church but what is needed is for it to run, at least, from York and ideally Spadina.
Do we need two north and south streets (Victoria and Church) just east of Yonge but only one (northbound only) street (York) just west of Yonge? However, we are not going to see the downtown network rebuilt; the best we can hope for is that Adelaide is rehabilitated and that a few additional curves (e,g. King westbound to York northbound) being added to give more options.
Do we need two north and south streets (Victoria and Church) just east of Yonge but only one (northbound only) street (York) just west of Yonge? However, we are not going to see the downtown network rebuilt; the best we can hope for is that Adelaide is rehabilitated and that a few additional curves (e,g. King westbound to York northbound) being added to give more options.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
Actually the ECLRT east of Kennedy is faster than west of it, the stop spacing is more like 600m (same as Line 2), versus about 400m between Vic Park and Kennedy. Anyway, you are undeniably correct that the new "LRT" lines are distinct from the older subway lines in their surface sections, being slower and more local-oriented. Meanwhile they are also clearly distinct from the legacy streetcar network, being faster and more regional-oriented.
The question is whether introducing the complexity of a new "mode" into the system map would make the system clearer or less clear to customers. Given that the central segment of ECLRT will be functionally identical to a subway, it was decided that the most intuitive organization was to classify the new LRT lines as "rapid transit" even though in some segments they are somewhat slow. This is similar to the situation on the existing subway map where the Yonge subway is twice as fast north of Eglinton as it is south of Bloor.
In order to justify the cost of a new rail line, there needs to be sufficient benefit. The only advantages a mixed-traffic streetcar has over a mixed-traffic bus are higher capacity and the ability to transition to underground operation without requiring passengers to transfer. Signal priority is independent of mode choice, you can give a bus just as much priority as a streetcar (though politically it's easier to give priority to a streetcar since it can carry three times as many people). Local emissions and noise are not a factor given that the TTC plans to roll out battery-electric buses starting in 2019 (TTC Corporate Plan page 93).
Therefore only mixed-traffic routes which would be worth considering are the 29 Dufferin south of Bloor (to increase capacity), or the 65 Parliament (to re-use the abandoned lower deck of the Rosedale Viaduct). Anywhere else, new streetcar lines would need to have a separate ROW in order to provide improved reliability and/or speed in addition to those benefits.
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Streety McCarface
Senior Member
I was thinking that maps use letters instead of numbers to denote LRT lines. If Spurs are present along lines (ie, Eglinton East and SRT replacement interlining), they can have the same colour background as the mainline but a different letter. Take Eglington, the main line would be an A on an orange background. The Scarborough spur could be a B with an orange background, and the Pearson/Transitway spur could be a C with an orange background. All 3 services run down Eglinton but with different final destinations. For other lines, like Finch West, the service could be D on an Aquablue, with the spur going to Pearson being an E on an aqua blue. They represent a different network by being letters and enable spurs without much confusion for the passenger. This is kind of like the MTA system. Of course, it's probably too late to implement such a system now.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Can we call them streetcars if they’re on on the street? If it’s got a dedicated ROW, isn’t it an LRT?
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Stop spacing is what really differentiates "streetcar" from "LRT". However, I feel like a lot of stops on the proposed LRT lines need to be removed. They're making the lines just as slow as streetcars.
DSC
Superstar
If stops are TOO far apart it will mean that there needs to be a feeder service to properly serve residents. Having very few stops is great IF you live close to one, if you need to take a feeder bus before you can board an LRT you will not to too happy!
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
BMO
Senior Member
The St. Clair Streetcar is the worst offender. There's basically a stop at every intersection. The stop spacing is actually smaller than the King/Queen Streetcar routes. Presumably, since the TTC spent millions to build those stations the optics of closing them would be horrible. But why do Yonge St and Vaughan Rd both need a stop when they're 150m apart? The longest stretch is between Keele and Old Weston with a distance of 350m. Most stops are 150m. It's so unfortunate since this line could be so much faster and more easily managed if there were fewer stops.
Toronto has an aversion to walking a little bit to catch transit.
The point is, if you're going to put dedicated lanes, it's a balance between leveraging the investment to get the best throughput for your money.
amnesiajune
Senior Member
Most of that ridership is generated by connecting buses, not people who walk to stations. When you take out all the connecting routes, Bloor-Danforth's ridership looks similar to the Sheppard Subway outside of high-density areas.