[Filip]

Most of that ridership is generated by connecting buses, not people who walk to stations. When you take out all the connecting routes, Bloor-Danforth's ridership looks similar to the Sheppard Subway outside of high-density areas.

That would likely hold true for all the subway lines?

 

[amnesiajune]

That would likely hold true for all the subway lines?

Yeah. Even in higher-density areas, subway ridership is low without connecting routes or lots of employment nearby.

On the main issue, the TTC's goal with the surface parts of Eglinton is to get rid of local bus service entirely. The underground stop spacing is considered too big to get rid of local bus service entirely (often 800+ meters, four gaps ≥1 km), so the TTC plans to keep the 34 bus in place between Don Mills and Weston Road. Having stops closer together east of Eglinton means that practically all of Eglinton is within ~350m of a station there. On the main part of Bloor-Danforth this is generally true, with local bus service for the few areas that are beyond ~350m of a station (the 66 or the 168 bus)

 

[Streety McCarface]

Most of that ridership is generated by connecting buses, not people who walk to stations. When you take out all the connecting routes, Bloor-Danforth's ridership looks similar to the Sheppard Subway outside of high-density areas.

A typical station without connecting bus routes will have a ridership of about ~5K-10K passengers per day. It's kind of bad for subway lines, but we are talking about an LRT system. Getting 1K-2K people at really redundant stops along Eglinton will only slow down service and increase operating costs beyond what is feasible.

 

[amnesiajune]

A typical station without connecting bus routes will have a ridership of about ~5K-10K passengers per day. It's kind of bad for subway lines, but we are talking about an LRT system. Getting 1K-2K people at really redundant stops along Eglinton will only slow down service and increase operating costs beyond what is feasible.

I don't think it'll be more expensive than the alternative of running a parallel local bus service. Also keep in mind that these won't be poorly-used stations, they're surrounded by parking lots that are very likely to be redeveloped into transit-oriented housing (hopefully employment too) once the LRT is up and running.

 

[W. K. Lis]

A typical station without connecting bus routes will have a ridership of about ~5K-10K passengers per day. It's kind of bad for subway lines, but we are talking about an LRT system. Getting 1K-2K people at really redundant stops along Eglinton will only slow down service and increase operating costs beyond what is feasible.

The Chester Station on Line 2 has a 7,700 ridership (2015), without connecting routes.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The Chester Station on Line 2 has a 7,700 ridership (2015), without connecting routes.

That's pretty much exactly what I said. The only two exceptions are Bessarion Station and Ellesmere.

 

[amnesiajune]

That's pretty much exactly what I said. The only two exceptions are Bessarion Station and Ellesmere.

Yep. Those two are unique in that they essentially have nothing around them - no connecting buses, very little employment, very little housing. This should change in the near future with Bessarion as the western parts of the Concord site get developed, but that's going to be another 10+ years. Bessarion's ridership is already growing significantly. It increased by 50% from 2012 to 2015.

From the 2015 numbers you can see the obviously low-use stations... Summerhill, Glencairn, Rosedale, Old Mill, Greenwood, Chester, Castle Frank, Bayview, Leslie... what they have in common is that they don't pick up passengers from any major routes, and they don't have much employment nearby (Leslie being a notable exception to this). The stations with high walk-up ridership despite no major bus connections are the ones in employment-heavy areas - North York Centre, Yorkdale, Sherbourne, Wellesley, and Bay.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Yep. Those two are unique in that they essentially have nothing around them - no connecting buses, very little employment, very little housing. This should change in the near future with Bessarion as the western parts of the Concord site get developed, but that's going to be another 10+ years. Bessarion's ridership is already growing significantly. It increased by 50% from 2012 to 2015.

From the 2015 numbers you can see the obviously low-use stations... Summerhill, Glencairn, Rosedale, Old Mill, Greenwood, Chester, Castle Frank, Bayview, Leslie... what they have in common is that they don't pick up passengers from any major routes, and they don't have much employment nearby (Leslie being a notable exception to this). The stations with high walk-up ridership despite no major bus connections are the ones in employment-heavy areas - North York Centre, Yorkdale, Sherbourne, Wellesley, and Bay.

I was trying to look for subway station ridership numbers for 2016 earlier today (the damn TTC is hiding statistics from last year and the year before from us), and stumbled across this:

I find it extremely intriguing that the Sheppard subway has little to no connections at all between Sheppard Yonge and Don Mills, and that Sheppard even has 50K Passengers per day. I should note that Eglinton seems to have the same issue between Yonge and Don Mills. It'll be interesting to see if infill stations there garner any significant ridership.

And I can second that ridership is heavily based on surface connections, especially with the TTC in suburban areas:


Note: The initial graph shows no correlation because a lot of transfer stations (with regards to GO, MiWay, YRT, etc) skew ridership (ie Bloor Yonge, St George, Spadina, Finch, Don Mills, Islington, Union, Main, Dundas West). Once those were removed, the correlation is quite apparent.

 

[nfitz]

I am quite sure that if the TTC and the City were planning a completely new downtown streetcar network today they would not have streetcars running on all the streets and/or in the way they do now.

I'm not so sure. Other cities are building streetcar lines that are shared with traffic. The new line that just opened in Seattle for example.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'm not so sure. Other cities are building streetcar lines that are shared with traffic. The new line that just opened in Seattle for example.

And most of those are terrible examples of good transit planning. On some streets (ie Queen East, Gerrard, Coxwell) they make sense. Downtown? Not at all.

Edit: I'm referring to dedicated ROW streetcar lines. By all means, build streetcars downtown, but they need some segregation in order to be effective.

 

[DSC]

I'm not so sure. Other cities are building streetcar lines that are shared with traffic. The new line that just opened in Seattle for example.

I was certainly not suggesting that only separate ROWs should exist. As others have said, they work in some locations but not in others and despite TTC claims are not the answer to all transit problems. As the exhaustive reviews that Steve Munro prepares show, it is quite clear that the main reason most TTC service is so irregular is not traffic but their non-existant route management.

 

[muller877]

.

I was trying to look for subway station ridership numbers for 2016 earlier today (the damn TTC is hiding statistics from last year and the year before from us), and stumbled across this: View attachment 140259.

Great picture. But I always wonder why they paint the same picture for the entire line. Would like to know the density of users at the outer perimeter vs closer to the subway station.

If they are all close to the station there is no need to build RT all the way to the outer edges of the route. A BRT dedicated lane near the terminus would suffice.

Likewise a short route (e.g. Kipling South or Prince Edward) don't even show up on the map even though they are almost 10 minute frequencies, at capacity and most of the users are at the end of the route.

 

[nfitz]

As the exhaustive reviews that Steve Munro prepares show, it is quite clear that the main reason most TTC service is so irregular is not traffic but their non-existant route management.

The one thing that surprised me was how much poorer 506 (and presumably 505) service is running during PM peak (for example) 42 buses every 4 minutes rather than 29 streetcars every 5.5 minutes. 506 service was always very erratic until September 2015(?) when they added run time, and increased both on-street supervision and supervision at Transit Control (presumably from the Bathurst/Davenport facility?).

TTC has been pretty cagey about the changes, but they have indicated transit control is now coming out of one of the bus divisions. And all signs of on-street supervision have vanished. And suddenly there's bunching like there is no tomorrow. This is somewhat understandable when things are running late. But what I can't fathom, is how when there is a bunch of 3, invariably the 3rd bus has started running very early, and then created a large gap behind it - and there's no one at Transit Control or on the street properly running things.

Which is is completely pathetic.

 

[steveintoronto]

... And all signs of on-street supervision have vanished. And suddenly there's bunching like there is no tomorrow. This is somewhat understandable when things are running late. But what I can't fathom, is how when there is a bunch of 3, invariably the 3rd bus has started running very early, and then created a large gap behind it - and there's no one at Transit Control or on the street properly running things.

Which is is completely pathetic.

I can second that. It's become a study in Chaos Theory, not regular service.

 

[Streety McCarface]

.


Great picture. But I always wonder why they paint the same picture for the entire line. Would like to know the density of users at the outer perimeter vs closer to the subway station.

If they are all close to the station there is no need to build RT all the way to the outer edges of the route. A BRT dedicated lane near the terminus would suffice.

Likewise a short route (e.g. Kipling South or Prince Edward) don't even show up on the map even though they are almost 10-minute frequencies, at capacity and most of the users are at the end of the route.

Unfortunately, the TTC does not release ridership data per stop, as it probably would be too large of a file to share with individuals outside the TTC.
You can always look at the number of scheduled short turns along a particular route to get an idea about ridership density along a route.