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- Thread starter wolfewood
- Start date
JSF-1
Active Member
I had to check my video notes but service to Bircmount Loop ended on July 1 1954, coinciding with the introduction of the old fare-zone boundaries. It was simpler to cut back service to Bingham Loop where the boundary was and extend bus service on Kingston Road an extra 2km instead of continuing to run streetcars to Birchmount Loop and have passengers pay an additional fare for an extra 2km of travel.
While this is just me speculating but I think had streetcar service still operated all the way to West Hill we could have seen a similar arrangement like what the QUEEN and LONG BRANCH cars had with passengers transferring at Humber Loop since there is still about 7km between Humber Loop and Long Branch Loop.. In this case the KINGSTON ROAD car would terminate at Bingham Loop and a hypathetical SCARBOROUGH streetcar would continue the remaining 13km journey from there to Fairwood Crescent. It would be a much easier sell to both passengers and the TTC, but that is of course not what happened since service to West Hill ended in 1936.
JSF-1
Active Member
I get why the TTC does this since PROWs are more efficient (especially if they have priority signals) but its also such a limiting practise because it severely limits just how much more expansion of the network is possible. For example it means Dufferin will never get a streetcar even though we have known since the 90's that the 29 Dufferin is the best candidate for conversion. Parliament is off the table and I am not even sure if the 512 could even be extended to Jane Street since St.Clair narrows considerably after Keele. Realistically outside of the port lands where could the network be further expanded to if the TTC is approaching streetcar expansion as an all or nothing game. Old town Toronto wasn't built with very wide streets nor with very much room to expand them so I guess for a route like the 29 Dufferin the TTC will just have to keep throwing more buses at the problem because the road isn't wide enough for a right-of-way.
drum118
Superstar
The city has been buying up property along that narrow section of St Clair to Jane as it comes up for sale to widen the road to match what exist east of it. When that will happen who knows.
Any development on land not own by the city has to meet the new street width requirements.
As for Dufferin St, the city had the opportunity to be wider it beginning of the 1900's, but the city did not see it as a major road with no need to widen it then as well removed the jog
You can only throw so many buses at something for so long until it becomes uneconomic to do so that it makes no sense to do so.
smallspy
Senior Member
It becomes a chicken or an egg problem, doesn't it?
A streetcar - when it moves - is a great way to move large masses of people. A stopped streetcar isn't
And this is the TTC's concern. Historically a bus route needs to reach a certain ridership threshold before it makes sense to look at conversion due to the costs involved. And if the vehicles on that route can't move due to traffic, it serves no one.
I know that the argument can and has been made that auto traffic was less on streets that streetcars ran on, but that's also a bit of a big hope to be resting the case on. A PROW eliminates that possibility altogether.
For the record, St. Clair west of Gunns to almost Runnymede is wide enough for an ROW (and maybe all the way to Jane - this I am less certain about), and it is going to be one of the next extensions.
But the reality is that a lot of the surface part of the transit system as it sits today is not suited for conversion - be it due to roadway widths or just a basic lack of ridership. The streetcar system will grow a bit from here on, but what we see today? This is basically what it is.
Dan
CapitalSeven
Senior Member
I hope this isn't too far off topic... Dufferin, at the same time, needs higher capacity transit, is underdeveloped (most of it below Bloor is old and unattractive houses), and is not reality suitable for streetcars. This is why some of us have been saying the Ontario line should run up Dufferin, at least as far as Dupont. Running streetcars would increase capacity but only be a partial fix to its problem, and possibly cause others.
(For some reason everyone seems to want a subway under Roncesvalles, which is fairly charming the way it is, and doesn't need higher order transit. Of course it could all be demolished and replaced with towers on top of Shoppers locations, but do we really want that?)
Better I think to save streetcar expansions for places where they are really the correct tool for the job, like the long overdue plans along the waterfront.
(For some reason everyone seems to want a subway under Roncesvalles, which is fairly charming the way it is, and doesn't need higher order transit. Of course it could all be demolished and replaced with towers on top of Shoppers locations, but do we really want that?)
Better I think to save streetcar expansions for places where they are really the correct tool for the job, like the long overdue plans along the waterfront.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Is this a genuine question or a rhetorical dismissal? IMO, we're having an interesting discussion on the history of streetcar service into Scarborough.
Here's some info on the old Birchmount Loop.
smallspy
Senior Member
It's only noteworthy because it's due to what is now a historical footnote, I guess.
If you want to see a streetcar on Kingston Rd. east of Victoria Park, the following questions would probably need to be answered:
- What is the ridership of that section of Kingston Rd.
- Where do people on Kingston Rd. want to go?
- Where would the streetcar go?
- Is there a large enough fleet?
- Is the street wide enough to allow streetcar tracks?
- Is there a location to turn cars back at its end?
Dan
DKsan
Active Member
From the East Harbour TOC Proposal:
3. TTC Infrastructure Agreement
This is an agreement between the City, Toronto Transit Commission and Cadillac Fairview requiring Cadillac Fairview to construct TTC streetcar infrastructure as part of the construction of the extension of Broadview Avenue within the East Harbour site. It contains specifications regarding TTC's requirements for its infrastructure, details regarding financial security, an upset limit and warranty, among other matters. Cadillac Fairview will be providing this as an in-kind contribution to a limit of $5 million. Any reasonable excess costs will be covered by the City through a DC credit mechanism.
This agreement shall be registered with priority on title and be binding on successor owners, to the satisfaction of the City Solicitor, but only provided that the aforementioned agreement is able to be registered on title and binding on successor owners, to the satisfaction of the City Solicitor
3. TTC Infrastructure Agreement
This is an agreement between the City, Toronto Transit Commission and Cadillac Fairview requiring Cadillac Fairview to construct TTC streetcar infrastructure as part of the construction of the extension of Broadview Avenue within the East Harbour site. It contains specifications regarding TTC's requirements for its infrastructure, details regarding financial security, an upset limit and warranty, among other matters. Cadillac Fairview will be providing this as an in-kind contribution to a limit of $5 million. Any reasonable excess costs will be covered by the City through a DC credit mechanism.
This agreement shall be registered with priority on title and be binding on successor owners, to the satisfaction of the City Solicitor, but only provided that the aforementioned agreement is able to be registered on title and binding on successor owners, to the satisfaction of the City Solicitor
jordanmkasla2009
Active Member
Starting this coming Monday June 24, streetcars on the 508 Lakeshore will be extended to serve Broadview Station via King, Queen and Broadview and will no longer serve stops on Parliament and Dundas. 508 Lakeshore Streetcars will use the 505 Dundas platform
jordanmkasla2009
Active Member
Beginning this Sunday June 23rd, 512 St. Clair service will return to using streetcars between St Clair Station and Gunn's Loop. Due to continuing work at St. Clair West station streetcars will not serve the station loop, riders will need to exit at Bathurst or Tweedsmuir to access St. Clair West Station.
Beginning this Sunday June 23rd a portion of the 312 St Clair-Junction Blue Night bus between Dundas West Station and Gunn's Loop will be split off and operate as route 340 Junction Blue Night bus with the remainder being converted to operating using streetcars and renamed the 312 St. Clair Blue Night streetcar.
Beginning this Sunday June 23rd a portion of the 312 St Clair-Junction Blue Night bus between Dundas West Station and Gunn's Loop will be split off and operate as route 340 Junction Blue Night bus with the remainder being converted to operating using streetcars and renamed the 312 St. Clair Blue Night streetcar.
allengeorge
Senior Member
TTC expects downtown streetcar service to resume Wednesday night
There will be no service between King Street West at Spadina Avenue east side and King Street East at Church Street east side, the TTC said.
www.thestar.com
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Toronto should do real signal priority and stop being scared of cars.
Allandale25
Senior Member
Second derailment at Church and King. I witnessed another one in May 2023.TTC expects downtown streetcar service to resume Wednesday night
There will be no service between King Street West at Spadina Avenue east side and King Street East at Church Street east side, the TTC said.
Richard White
Senior Member
In and amongst all the budget cuts.. proofreading seems to have been eliminated.
Note where the sign reads "Streetcars will operating from the 504 Dundas Platform 7". Yeaaaaa that is bound to cause problems.