[seanlucat]

idk if this is the page for it but, How likely would a Parliament Streetcar be once the Union Loop expansion is completed. Such a line could use the Lower deck of the viaduct over the Rosedale Ravine and have an underground loop at Castle Frank and would need less than 4km of track, 1.25km from CF to Carlton and 2.25km from King/Parliament to Union via QQE.

Also a small extension of the St Clair Car from Gunns Loop to Runnymede station,
Truncation and merger of the 508/501 to Park Lawn and upgrading of the line from Park Lawn to Long Branch to LRT standards and extending it to Port credit/Lakeview village.

 

[Richard White]

idk if this is the page for it but, How likely would a Parliament Streetcar be once the Union Loop expansion is completed. Such a line could use the Lower deck of the viaduct over the Rosedale Ravine and have an underground loop at Castle Frank and would need less than 4km of track, 1.25km from CF to Carlton and 2.25km from King/Parliament to Union via QQE.

Do you have a pile of money to rebuild Castle Frank and recomission the lower deck?

 

[turbanplanner]

Dundas is the clear next up for a King Street Pilot treatment if not a fully separated ROW. It'll take some political capital but on-street parking on Dundas has got to go.. Move it to the side streets and Green P garages priced the same as on-street parking and then boil the frog by ratcheting the cost up over a decade to discourage downtown driving and encourage the by then reliable streetcar. To soothe the transition, along the No Parking signs (no time exceptions) add a "Green P Available on McCaul St" sign under it.

Full stop I don't support changes like this until they throw out the archaic rules like going a snails pace through intersections!

The car folks are not prepared to walk a bock or even 5 blocks to/from where they live to their poor little car that may get damage or stolen than having it parked a few feet away from their place. The you go the business crying the blues that those long walks will driver away customer considering owners want that spot in front of their business..

Makes no different what streetcar line you want to make it like King, the backlash could force some of the councillors out of that nice paying job next election that they will do their best to kill another King St.

Those who park on the street a night don't work in Toronto.

I've been inside several conods that have a green P lot! TBH even before the city introduced parking maximums almost every building downtown had applied for a variance so unless you have a 2 bedroom you didn't even have a chance to get a spot.

The real reason we'll never get a 100% transit only ROW is because the city would have to compensate every single person who owns a parking spot with their unit for the cost of the spot as well as the diminished value!

 

[Mihairokov]

Do you have a pile of money to rebuild Castle Frank and recomission the lower deck?

I'd love to have a pile of money to demolish Castle Frank station and remove it from the system entirely. It's a personal stop for a neighbourhood that doesn't use it.

 

[drum118]

I'd love to have a pile of money to demolish Castle Frank station and remove it from the system entirely. It's a personal stop for a neighbourhood that doesn't use it.

You don't have to demolish it as you can simply close it and turn the bus terminal into a park and green the existing structures.

What do you do for the riders who use the station for the Parliament bus route. There has always been walk in when I have visited the station and area.

You are only gaining about two minutes with the closing of the station .

 

[SashaLemon]

I watched that "Trams are Great! So why are the Streetcars SO BAD!?" video by Not Just Bikes. I basically already knew all the reasons why the streetcars are crippled but putting it all together like that... really depressing. Compared to new lines, we could upgrade the streetcars to a world class system for a fraction of the cost. But we won't because of suburban politicians. It's frustrating.

 

[zang]

I'd love to have a pile of money to demolish Castle Frank station and remove it from the system entirely. It's a personal stop for a neighbourhood that doesn't use it.

Not a fair assessment, given that TDSB’s Rosedale Heights School for the Arts is right across the street. It’s a school without a catchment attended by students from across the city.

 

[smallspy]

I'd love to have a pile of money to demolish Castle Frank station and remove it from the system entirely. It's a personal stop for a neighbourhood that doesn't use it.

Contrary to what you seem to think, the primary market for the station is to the south, not the north.

Dan

 

[nfitz]

I'd love to have a pile of money to demolish Castle Frank station and remove it from the system entirely. It's a personal stop for a neighbourhood that doesn't use it.

I'm scratching my head here. Is this a slur against St. Jamestown and Regent Park? When was the last time you rode the 65 Parliament?

The station seems well used when I've used it - admittedly mostly on weekends. The platforms seem busy when I ride through it, with a very notable school rush (not surprising given that most students at Rosedale take the subway, and don't live nearby). Meanwhile 65 Parliament bus frequencies have significantly increased over the years with densification along Parliament.

Looking at the 2024 ridership numbers - Castle Frank was at 8,943 a day. Woodbine was at 10,800 and Museum was at 9,600. Should we close those two as well?

Comparing to 2019 ridership numbers - Caste Frank was at 8,878. Woodbine was at 16,083, and Museum was at 10,865.

Castle Frank is a rare station that has grown ridership since before Covid. Perhaps an indication of the relative poverty in it's catchment.

Seems to me reextending the streetcar network to Castle Frank would fit very well with the current network. Though I wouldn't get fancy with lower decks and tunnels. The loop at Castle Frank seems big enough. Just put it on the surface of Bloor Street.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I'm scratching my head here. Is this a slur against St. Jamestown and Regent Park? When was the last time you rode the 65 Parliament?

The station seems well used when I've used it - admittedly mostly on weekends. The platforms seem busy when I ride through it, with a very notable school rush (not surprising given that most students at Rosedale take the subway, and don't live nearby). Meanwhile 65 Parliament bus frequencies have significantly increased over the years with densification along Parliament.

Looking at the 2024 ridership numbers - Castle Frank was at 8,943 a day. Woodbine was at 10,800 and Museum was at 9,600. Should we close those two as well?

Comparing to 2019 ridership numbers - Caste Frank was at 8,878. Woodbine was at 16,083, and Museum was at 10,865.

Castle Frank is a rare station that has grown ridership since before Covid. Perhaps an indication of the relative poverty in it's catchment.

Seems to me reextending the streetcar network to Castle Frank would fit very well with the current network. Though I wouldn't get fancy with lower decks and tunnels. The loop at Castle Frank seems big enough. Just put it on the surface of Bloor Street.

If the TTC went instead of the current single-ended streetcars but with double-ended streetcars in the next order/generation, they wouldn't need a loop at Castle Frank Station. A crossover track or tracks would do.

 

[nfitz]

If the TTC went instead of the current single-ended streetcars but with double-ended streetcars in the next order/generation, they wouldn't need a loop at Castle Frank Station.

While true - and perhaps especially useful for operations in some places, surely Castle Frank station is the last station in the city where this would be necessary. That bus loop is massively over-designed for just 2 bus routes - it almost looks like it was designed for streetcar from day 1!

(anyone know anything about that design history?)

 

[reaperexpress]

Seems to me reextending the streetcar network to Castle Frank would fit very well with the current network. Though I wouldn't get fancy with lower decks and tunnels. The loop at Castle Frank seems big enough. Just put it on the surface of Bloor Street.

Given that there's already an unused streetcar deck under the Rosedale viaduct, it might actually be cheaper to add tracks under the roadway than to rebuild the roadway structure of the bridge to support streetcar tracks.

Of course that then requires an underground station which is more expensive, but as long as the line uses bidirectional streetcars you could build a very modest underground terminal with minimal excavation, connecting directly to the existing station's concourse level.

In total the construction cost of the underground option probably wouldn't be much more than the at-grade option, in which case it would be worth the additional cost to avoid any delays at the Bloor & Parliament and Bloor & Castle Frank terminal intersections.

 

[nfitz]

Given that there's already an unused streetcar deck under the Rosedale viaduct, it might actually be cheaper to add tracks under the roadway than to rebuild the roadway structure of the bridge to support streetcar tracks.

Perhaps if it's necessary to rebuild the roadway structure. With the added bike lanes the loading of that bridge already must be lower than it designed for.

It would sure be nice, but I doubt it would be cheaper, once you start throwing in the costs of two portals (or worse, underground platforms at Castle Frank).

But again I ask - what were they thinking in the late 1950s and early 1960s when they designed Castle Frank station? I can see why the BD subway might have eliminated the Harbord streetcar, and neither Coxwell nor Pape stations were designed for streetcar loops - but the Castle Frank bus loop has always looked rather different to me.

 

[ShonTron]

I seriously doubt there were any plans for streetcars to operate into Castle Frank. The TTC was well into its streetcar abandonment phase in the 1960s and so would not have seen the need to continue the Parliament streetcar after 1966. With the 1966 and 1968 closures, it was able to get rid of all the air electric PCCs, keeping only those built between 1946 and 1951 for the remaining services that would have disappeared by 1980.

 

[JSF-1]

I seriously doubt there were any plans for streetcars to operate into Castle Frank. The TTC was well into its streetcar abandonment phase in the 1960s and so would not have seen the need to continue the Parliament streetcar after 1966. With the 1966 and 1968 closures, it was able to get rid of all the air electric PCCs, keeping only those built between 1946 and 1951 for the remaining services that would have disappeared by 1980.

This man speaks the truth. In my research on the topic I don't recall the TTC ever giving a reason for the end of service on Parliament. Usually when the TTC ended service they would give a reason and if you squinted really hard you could see where they were coming from. Parliament , Coxwell, and Oakwood, however just up and vanished without reason. The thing is the Parliament Streetcar didn't even need to go to Castle Frank, there were still tracks crossing the Bloor Viaduct so the route could have been sent to Broadview. This would have required building Broadview to accommodate 3 routes but it was always an option.