[Northern Light]

Regarding that G&M article, they say the price tag to turn one side of University Blvd into a park would be an estimated $230M compared to the $1.7B required for the proposed 20-acre Rail Deck Park. That is a big cost savings!

However, my one main concern with the University Blvd proposal is all of the East/West cross streets that will interrupt the park. Costs would go a wayyyy up if they buried those cross streets under University. Plus the University Blvd park wouldn't be that wide so no fields per say to play on.

What type of park do we need downtown? One that is cheaper but has less flexibility or the more expensive but potentially slightly wider park over the rail deck? Tough call.

I don't think this is an either/or question.

Like Rail Deck Park, University could be done in phases.

You might cut off the traffic on one side completely to avoid confusion, but initially just throw down some flower planters, benches and tables; while doing reconstruction, one block at a time to allow for a new landscape.

Similarly, Rail Deck Park (as a proposal) is already split at Spadina into a small eastern phase, ~3 acres; with the balance, ~19 acres to the west, to come later; and likely not all at once.

Rail Deck Park phase 1 could, theoretically fit a playing field (it won't) as it would occupy 80% of the space.

So while we may pick up one playing field and a variety of other spaces later, that will never be the primary purpose of Rail Deck Park.

There are probably 3 relatively obvious sites left near downtown for playing fields; none are 'free'.

One would be the former (and possibly future) school site at Sherbourne and Shuter.

Another the site of Moss Park Amoury (Armoury would have to be relocated)

The third the various parking lots and parks bounded Orde, Murray and McCaul (the parking is needed but could be shifted at least partially underground, with a playing field on top.

Thereafter we get into more Rail Deck Parks at exorbitant price points.

Another Rail Deck, this one over The Don Yard and LSE. (a solid 4ha/10 acres).....but surely at a billion dollar price point.

 

[Undead]

I too laud Ms. Hidalgo's plans.

I too would love to see some of that same ambition here.

But I would caution; when all Ms. Hidalgo's plans are fully rolled out; if she achieves every last one; Paris will still be a far-less green City than Toronto.

Not less walkable, mind you; but less green.

I don't know if you have been to Paris; but having had the pleasure, let me say there is much to recommend it; but outside of the Grand Boulevards and a few select parks; trees are a rarity in Paris.

Most of the park space, and there isn't much, is devoted to formal gardens with 'keep off the grass' being a motto (a la Francais, bien sur)

I don't want to take away from the value of Parisian visions of green; nor fail to note that Toronto isn't nearly as pretty or walkable as it might be.

We can and should do better.

But lets not oversell change in Paris, or fail to recognize its shortcomings; and lets not undersell our City; for all its genuine shortcomings, one of the very best places to live in the world.

Indeed. My experience visiting European cities is that while their public realm is generally much better than ours, it's mostly hardscape with less greenery.

 

[allengeorge]

I too laud Ms. Hidalgo's plans.

I too would love to see some of that same ambition here.

But I would caution; when all Ms. Hidalgo's plans are fully rolled out; if she achieves every last one; Paris will still be a far-less green City than Toronto.

I’ve been in Paris, but a long time ago.

I should have clarified that my appreciation of Mayor Hidalgo stems from her focus on focus on pedestrians, bikes and the 15-minute city (or livability). My bad!

That aside, I don’t find downtown Toronto very green. The roads are too wide, there’s not a lot of street trees, and a lotta grey in the sky.

 

[Northern Light]

I’ve been in Paris, but a long time ago.

I should have clarified that my appreciation of Mayor Hidalgo stems from her focus on focus on pedestrians, bikes and the 15-minute city (or livability). My bad!

That aside, I don’t find downtown Toronto very green. The roads are too wide, there’s not a lot of street trees, and a lotta grey in the sky.

Could certainly be 'greener'; both Montreal and Vancouver have about 25% more tree cover.

But we do more than double Paris:

Treepedia :: MIT Senseable City Lab

Exploring the Green Canopy in cities around the world

senseable.mit.edu

 

[reteequa]

Could certainly be 'greener'; both Montreal and Vancouver have about 25% more tree cover.

But we do more than double Paris:

Treepedia :: MIT Senseable City Lab

Exploring the Green Canopy in cities around the world

senseable.mit.edu

Interesting site but not too sure how it works and how accurate it is. It says most of cherry street has a higher green index than the west side of queens quay....? It also doesn't account for parks, that would probably just blow Vancouver even further ahead than us but I would assume it would bring us even further from Paris.

 

[daniel_kryz]

I’ve been in Paris, but a long time ago.

I should have clarified that my appreciation of Mayor Hidalgo stems from her focus on focus on pedestrians, bikes and the 15-minute city (or livability). My bad!

That aside, I don’t find downtown Toronto very green. The roads are too wide, there’s not a lot of street trees, and a lotta grey in the sky.

That's exactly why we need a progressive mayor, like Jennifer Keesmaat. She has many ideas on how to physically improve the city, and the University Avenue redesign was one of many from her flagship project, TOCore.

 

[allengeorge]

That's exactly why we need a progressive mayor, like Jennifer Keesmaat. She has many ideas on how to physically improve the city, and the University Avenue redesign was one of many from her flagship project, TOCore.

Definitely agree that we need a Mayor (and city planning) that's willing to dream. That's not true of the current Mayor - and AFAICT, not the current planning leadership either.

 

[T.E.C.II]

Was the rail deck park not Tory's idea?

 

[AlexBozikovic]

like Jennifer Keesmaat. She has many ideas on how to physically improve the city, and the University Avenue redesign was one of many from her flagship project, TOCore.

A version of this idea was indeed in the TOCore plan (as “conceptual”). I’m not sure it should be credited to Keesmaat personally. It was developed by PUBLIC WORK as consultants to city planning.

The important point: until the Young foundation started pushing for it, this was stalled. Today’s planning department is not prepared to advance any bold ideas or offer controversial advice. Any serious change has to be spurred by people outside City Hall.

 

[allengeorge]

Today’s planning department is not prepared to advance any bold ideas or offer controversial advice.

So it’s not just my imagination then, that the current planning department leadership is incredibly risk-averse.

 

[daniel_kryz]

A version of this idea was indeed in the TOCore plan (as “conceptual”). I’m not sure it should be credited to Keesmaat personally. It was developed by PUBLIC WORK as consultants to city planning.

The important point: until the Young foundation started pushing for it, this was stalled. Today’s planning department is not prepared to advance any bold ideas or offer controversial advice. Any serious change has to be spurred by people outside City Hall.

PUBLIC WORK did do the Parks and Public Realm Plan, and they've done a very good job. We definitely need bold leadership, especially for the planning department. Wasn't she a very ambitious chief planner? Councillors didn't like her because she pushed hard to get bike lanes, walkable streets, and better planning policies. I think she has the experience and she would definitely get University Avenue (and other "great streets") rebuilt if she were in charge. Honestly, I think this idea isn't likely to get done under John Tory and has the greatest chance of getting built if she becomes mayor.

 

[White Pine]

I don't like how there are no coniferous trees in the render. I get that they don't give much shade, but it might help make it a bit less dismal in the winter.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Champs-Élysées in Paris to be redesigned into a pedestrian-friendly green space​

From link.

The Place de la Concorde re-envisioned as a green space

The transition relies on meticulous documentation and study of the activities of the avenue

The exhibition itself presented a look back at the 350-year-old history of the Champs-Élysées and then presented the metamorphic re-planning. The transition from the past to the future is not arbitrary, and relies on meticulous documentation and study. Working in collaboration with researchers, historians, scientists, engineers, artists, and economic and cultural participants from France and abroad, Chiambaretta traced and analysed the current usages, and development of the Avenue to propose a new vision. Part of the exhibition even invited its viewers to participate in the feedback process. Community support and engagement is possibly one of the reasons why the proposal was eventually green-lit.

Two of the biggest concerns raised were the abandonment of the gardens along the avenue, and what was titled “problems associated with its contemporary ambitions”. This is a direct reference to the popularisation of the avenue as a tourist destination. Populated with expensive cafes and luxury stores, the study proclaimed the following estimate, “About two thirds of the pedestrians walking along the Champs‑Élysées are tourists, 85 per cent of whom come from abroad. If we subtract the people who work in the neighbourhood and those who are simply passing through (i.e., who spend less than 15 minutes in the area), Parisians represent a mere five per cent of the avenue’s users”. With such a large mass of the population to be accounted for during specific times of the day, a more dynamic and adaptable planning structure is required.

The Champs-Élysées is famous for its expensive cafes, and luxury stores

One could argue that all cities, irrespective of being tourist hubs or not, exhibit daily migratory patterns. Different sections of the city are active at different times of the day. The thing to keep in mind with urban foci such as this Parisian avenue is that the shift in volume is very dramatic. Chiambaretta’s study and proposal set up an operational framework defined by five urban layers: nature, infrastructure, mobilities, uses, and buildings. The proposal breaks the avenue down into distinct areas namely; Place de l’Étoile, the upper stretch of the avenue, the lower stretch of the avenue, the Champs Élysées gardens, and the Place de la Concorde. Each of them then individually addresses the issues of nature, use and mobility, while infrastructure and building create an interconnection that ties the entire proposal together.

The proposal features an operational framework defined by five urban layers: nature, infrastructure, mobilities, uses and buildings

The official statement of the re-envisioning states: “Our vision to re-enchant the avenue by 2030 invites us to bring together the research and resources of all public and private stakeholders in order to make this urban space a laboratory of excellence for more sustainable, desirable, and inclusive cities”. This is perhaps the best summary of the proposal's intentions and desires.

 

[W. K. Lis]

 

[TossYourJacket]

I wonder if the city would be more interested in the University Park proposal now Rail Deck Park has fallen through