[kEiThZ]

Perhaps i'm missing something but you can access a lot of platforms as a civilian without any sort of ticket. I don't think I encountered any intercity stations in Germany/Belgium which had turnstiles or some sort of clearance. Koln Hbf, Berlin Hbf, Brussels Centraal....you can sort of just go to the platforms however you like. Union in Toronto is the same for GO.

Nobody ever checked for my tickets, either, but that's an aside.

Really depends on the country. When I took HSR in Spain, in Cordoba we had airport style security and ticket checks at the platform. In Antequera, we had the checks to enter the station itself (it's a station in the countryside).

 

[reaperexpress]

Speak after me: You can‘t allow non-passengers onto a platform if they have no way back. The vertical access at all three largest VIA stations (TRTO, MTRL, OTTW) allows only passenger flows in one direction.

Toronto I understand since they're narrow escalators, but in what way are Ottawa and Montreal restricted to one-way flows? Ottawa has ramps, and Montreal has wide staircases.

As I keep saying like a broken record: If you want European-style boarding practices, you need to make sure you have European-style station/platform infrastructure. If you asked DB or JR to operate trains at these stations, they would come up with boarding procedures which have a very strong similarity with those of VIA and very little with those „at home“…

And as I keep saying like a broken record, while the narrow platforms at Union do necessitate some form of access control, that control does not need to be as restrictive as Via's current process wherein everyone is funneled through a single escalator (which is what causes the queuing in the concourse). GO has already found a solution which limits platform crowding while still allowing passengers to use any available staircase or elevator.

 

[crs1026]

This works, at least in my opinion, because they tend to have decent separation from commuter platforms. I do hope HFR is modeled substantially after Brightline.

I rode Brightline quite recently - the station amenities reminded me of Porter at YTZ back in their early years. I wonder if they will be sustained.

On entering (turnstile plus luggage scan and metal detector, but much less elaborate with none of the airport inspection minutae), someone told us that they would announce when it was time to board. Out of impatience (and foamerly curiosity, I will admit) I went to the gate to see if I could get out on the platform sooner. The automatic doors opened and there I was... with several people following me as they figured I must know something. There were several Brightline staffers around, but no one challenged us or sent us back inside. When the boarding call did come, it was unintelligible.... the prerecorded PA announcements were clear as a bell, but the live voice mike was terrible. (I found the same on the train.)
With car door locations clearly marked, and only one train in the station, it was hard to get lost... might not be the case in a bigger station. So I would not give BL a perfect score. It's all in the details.

BTW, at large UK stations like Paddington or Kings Cross, commuter trains and intercity do share the same perimeter setup. I found that the "manual inspection" gate was so cursory I doubted that they were actually inspecting fares, so long as you had something in your hand you were waved thru. My phone based Britrail pass would not trigger the turnstiles, but read successfully on the train when inspected with handheld scanners. Very inconsistent.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

BTW, at large UK stations like Paddington or Kings Cross, commuter trains and intercity do share the same perimeter setup. I found that the "manual inspection" gate was so cursory I doubted that they were actually inspecting fares, so long as you had something in your hand you were waved thru. My phone based Britrail pass would not trigger the turnstiles, but read successfully on the train when inspected with handheld scanners. Very inconsistent.

I found the same when I was in the UK earlier this year. I had a GWR off-peak day pass on my phone, but the ticket gates at Paddington didn't recognize it for some reason, so I went through the manual inspection line along with lots of other people and the 'inspector' really wasn't checking anything. The vast majority of people were able to get through the automatic gates though, so it took very little time to get the full trainload from the concourse to the platform.

In the Netherlands, they've been installing fare gates at stations where there is room. The entire station is generally within the fare-paid area, so people just visting shops tap in with their OV Chipkaart to get to them, and tap out to cancel the trip when they leave. Most of the gates only read OV Chipkaart and Contactless, but there are a few gates on each gateline that also read QR codes for paper tickets or e-tickets. Pretty much all of the major stations have fare gates, so there really isn't any need to check tickets aboard Intercity trains in the Randstad region (Holland + Utrecht). Many minor stations don't have fare gates so on-board ticket controls are still necessary on local trains.

I think a large part of the frustration with Via's pre-boarding ticket check is simply the delay that it causes, which is visible in the form of queuing. If Via is able to introduce a more efficient way of checking tickets and getting people to the platform (i.e. install fare gates that read QR codes, and actually use all three escalators from the concourse to the platform), they can still retain that redundant check while cutting the queuing delay by two thirds.

 

[micheal_can]

If you're saying we should learn from elsewhere, what you suggest doesn't happen elsewhere either. Most places have some kind of control to either restrict the entire station or at least the platforms to paid passengers. This is done with either employees checking tickets or automated fare gates. As for luggage? Gotta love the scramble for the luggage racks on the trains. Somehow worse than VIA.

Can you give an example of an operation which does what you suggest?

GO trains. If the Corridor is not an experience, but a transportation mode,then emulating GO would be a good start.

They are free to share opinions. They should make it clear those are opinions. And shouldn't misrepresent facts. I would suggest trying to insinuate that VIA is massively inefficient on employees is an example of this. This kind of misinformation does nothing but harm VIA and passenger rail more broadly in Canada.

Ever work fora government agency? I have. It is terribly inefficient with its personnel. The problem is not that the personnel are bad, but, it is that what they are doing, some of it could be automated away and save the agency lots of money for investment elsewhere. I blame policy makers and senior management on this.

I can understand the need to control access to platforms at Montreal and Toronto for safety, but that can be done without a ticket check. In an era where other systems' info technology is so advanced, and tells you not only where your train is going but where each car will be found, which end of the car to board at....and then repeats the whole thing with overhead monitors in the car.....I see no reason for staff to be intervening.i. passengers' paths. Just don't open the gate until boarding is desired, and then stand back and look friendly and respond to passenger inquiries. Let the signage guide people (VIA is a couple of generations behind the curve in station IT....thanks no doubt to Ottawa and not VIA not allowing the investment).

Union has "Fare paid zones" for their platforms for GO trains. I cannot just go there and hang out without a ticket. There is no one checking tickets.

Planes don't usually make intermediate stops.....

And when they do, you better believe that those people who boarded stood in line and had their tickets checked.

Dan

Buses make intermediate stops and you are checked only once. On some city routes, there is no checking as it is expected you have it and if you don't and someone starts checking, you can be fined.

 

[innsertnamehere]

GO platforms are "fare paid" - but that's not practically enforced as fare enforcement only occurs on trains.

 

[kEiThZ]

GO trains. If the Corridor is not an experience, but a transportation mode,then emulating GO would be a good start.

How many places run commuter trains and intercity trains with the exact same service model? I can't think of one.

 

[reaperexpress]

How many places run commuter trains and intercity trains with the exact same service model? I can't think of one.

The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, some railways in Japan

 

[Urban Sky]

The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, some railways in Japan

I would love to hear examples for what services you are exactly comparing and why you think they operate with „exactly the same service model“ for the purposes of this discussion here…

 

[smallspy]

Toronto I understand since they're narrow escalators, but in what way are Ottawa and Montreal restricted to one-way flows? Ottawa has ramps, and Montreal has wide staircases.

Ottawa is ramps in one direction, and escalators in the other.

Montreal is stairs in one direction, and escalators in the other.

But the more important thing is where they all lead to. And in Ottawa's case, it's a corridor. In Montreal, it's the middle of the main concourse/hall. There are not additional staircases or ramps or escalators leading to other parts of the building.

And as I keep saying like a broken record, while the narrow platforms at Union do necessitate some form of access control, that control does not need to be as restrictive as Via's current process wherein everyone is funneled through a single escalator (which is what causes the queuing in the concourse). GO has already found a solution which limits platform crowding while still allowing passengers to use any available staircase or elevator.

There are way, way more vertical accesses to the GO platforms than there are the VIA platforms. It's much easier to segregate the flows up and down.

Had they built additional accesses on the VIA platforms during all of the work done over the past 15 years, sure, it might be more plausible to do it. But as it sits today, it's not set up for it.

Buses make intermediate stops and you are checked only once. On some city routes, there is no checking as it is expected you have it and if you don't and someone starts checking, you can be fined.

And your point is what, exactly?

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

GO platforms are "fare paid" - but that's not practically enforced as fare enforcement only occurs on trains.

How so? If someone sits in your spot, then you let someone on board know.Other than that, roving inspections would be all that is needed.

And your point is what, exactly?

Dan

Point is, it is not that unusual.

 

[micheal_can]

I feel there are 4 types of people in Canada when it comes to Via.

1) They don't care and don't want to care.
2) They want it shut down/sold off/privatized.
3) They want slow, methodical, pragmatic changes, but only in the highest populated areas.
4) They want real change that would actually make Via useful for more than just the people of Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal. They are tired of the politics and the status quo.

I know I am #4. Most Canadians are #1.The person who made the video is #4.
Where do you fit in the 4 categories?

 

[Bojaxs]

I feel there are 4 types of people in Canada when it comes to Via.

1) They don't care and don't want to care.
2) They want it shut down/sold off/privatized.
3) They want slow, methodical, pragmatic changes, but only in the highest populated areas.
4) They want real change that would actually make Via useful for more than just the people of Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal. They are tired of the politics and the status quo.

I know I am #4. Most Canadians are #1.The person who made the video is #4.
Where do you fit in the 4 categories?

I probably fall somewhere between 3 & 4.

 

[Urban Sky]

I think I fall into #5:

5) They are annoyed by people who keep encouraging internet trolls from Sudbury by jumping over every single stick he‘s holding for them…

 

[lenaitch]

Other than that, roving inspections would be all that is needed.

You are proposing this for VIA? Firstly, whatever system VIA uses for booking and fare management would have to be compatible across their system, or they would have to have different systems depending of the need and facilities of their various routes. What works in Kingston won't likely work in Gillam.

Do you (and others) propose to hire fare inspectors or load this onto the existing and, form what I have heard, limited on-board staff? On-board fare inspectors on GO aren't part of the operating crew, and can cover multiple trains in one shift. I'm not sure how that could be managed even in corridor service.

Even if VIA wanted to do such a thing, it would need legislation. GO offences are enabled by the Metrolinx Act, and enforcement personnel are designated as Provincial Offences Officers. I haven't researched it, but it seems any fare offences in VIA would have to be created under the Railways Safety Act. Enforcement personnel would have to be somehow empowered to enforce the Act. Currently, I believe the only people who can do that are police constables appointed under the Act ('Railway Police'). There is no authority for VIA to appoint enforcement personnel since VIA has no enabling legislation. Once you create a public-facing enforcement service, you create the need for specific HR, training, court liaison (across many jurisdictions), supervision, and on and on.

All quite do-able of course, provided Parliament is up for it, but outside of VIA's wheelhouse.