micheal_can
Senior Member
Probably some sort of 'gentleman's agreement'. CN also used ONR tracks to get to Northern Quebec.
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
lenaitch
Senior Member
*Tyendinaga.
I don't know for certain but I doubt it. It was likely a matter of 'there but for the grace of God . . . '. With so few mainline routes, they are both vulnerable to social and environmental disruption. I would assume compensation for crew and equipment.
No doubt it was kept quiet to avoid disruption. The CP lakeshore line isn't all that far away and sympathy protests can pop up quickly at any time.
crs1026
Superstar
^While it was generally known that CN was handing traffic over to the CN line, the protestors either didn't know which trains on CP were CN's.... or didn't care. The blockade was clearly successful, there were CN trains parked all over the place.... if a little traffic got through on CP, it was not material to the confrontation.
Detours do happen, but crewing is so tight these days that they only provide a trickle and not a full scale rerouting of the traffic.
- Paul
Detours do happen, but crewing is so tight these days that they only provide a trickle and not a full scale rerouting of the traffic.
- Paul
lenaitch
Senior Member
Not a law prof but the short answer is no. An appellant can cite out-of-country case law as part of their argument, and a court can reference foreign case law in its rulings, but its application and relevance to our laws and systems as well as the matter at-hand would have to be very strong. It might be worthy of consideration but foreign law cannot directly be precedent.
lenaitch
Senior Member
The protest/blockade was in sympathy for events out west and not against CN directly. While the protest would be on what is considered as traditional territory, it was not on identified FNT lands. They could have just as easily shut down the 401. Quite frankly, they could have disrupted both CN and CP if they had moved a little west, although no road crossing.
Events like this could have grown but they either controlled it well or lacked the added support. There is only slightly over 2000 living on the FNT out of a band population of about 11000.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Ha. He's certainly not the only one. I think George Bush was famous for a few, like "misunderestimate". I tend to cut any public speaker a bit of slack. Unless you are reading off a teleprompter, the brain and mouth don't have any slack. High profile politicians speak in public so much that it's bound to happen, and few of them are English majors. But, sometimes it is so damned funny.
micheal_can
Senior Member
This is where I know what I do not know and I let the ones that do do as they need to.
All of this will be moot if nothing comes from that NDP MP's complaint. It would be nice if this led to a bigger conversation with the government, Via and the owners of railways as to a way to give Canada a robust rail system that actually serves the needs of all Canadian whether it be freight or passenger service. We have seen in the last 5 years that protests and weather can cripple the railways. I would welcome the government investing in improving short lines that can be used as reroutes and double tracking the entire mainlines of CN and CP.. I know that kind of investment is in the order of Trillions.
nfitz
Superstar
It was on identified First Nation Territory land.
In particular it was on the Culbertson Tract, taken by the crown in 1837, who chose to ignore Treaty 3½, and they've been disputing it since then . Both the CN and CP mainlines pass through this tract, for which neither has legal title to, given subsequent court rulings.
The courts ruled a decade ago that the land belongs to the First Nations, and the government has been offering a cash settlement; but no agreement was reached at that time.
The timing of this particular protest was related to events in BC, but they have acted independently in the past - such as when they've closed both the 401 and CN tract.
Protests block 401, rail lines
Canada’s busiest highway was shut down for 11 hours today and rail lines were closed to passengers and freight for even longer as a rogue Mohawk protester ignored calls for a peaceful day of action by aboriginals and set out to disrupt the country’s economy.
www.thestar.com
Since 2020, a partial settlement has been reached, but much of the land is still in dispute. Personally, I'd have not waited 200 years for a settlement. And in 2020 I was saddened by the racist comments I heard from some that the police and government should force the blockade to end. We've discussed this identified FNT land before in one of the threads.
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lenaitch
Senior Member
I defer to your more in-depth knowledge and obvious passion surrounding the issue, but stand by my statement that, according to the coverage at the time, *that* protest was in support of western events. Also, that the blockade site was outside of the bounds of the Mohawk Territory as shown on most maps. According to the Mohawks of the Bay of Quinte website, the Cuthbertson Tract claim is east of the current boundaries of the Territory and not in the area of that event.It was on identified First Nation Territory land.
In particular it was on the Culbertson Tract, taken by the crown in 1837, who chose to ignore Treaty 3½, and they've been disputing it since then . Both the CN and CP mainlines pass through this tract, for which neither has legal title to, given subsequent court rulings.
The courts ruled a decade ago that the land belongs to the First Nations, and the government has been offering a cash settlement; but no agreement was reached at that time.
The timing of this particular protest was related to events in BC, but they have acted independently in the past - such as when they've closed both the 401 and CN tract.
Protests block 401, rail lines
Canada’s busiest highway was shut down for 11 hours today and rail lines were closed to passengers and freight for even longer as a rogue Mohawk protester ignored calls for a peaceful day of action by aboriginals and set out to disrupt the country’s economy.
Since 2020, a partial settlement has been reached, but much of the land is still in dispute. Personally, I'd have not waited 200 years for a settlement. And in 2020 I was saddened by the racist comments I heard from some that the police and government should force the blockade to end. We've discussed this identified FNT land before in one of the threads.
chrisw
Active Member
Maple Leaf ridership for 2023 exceeded 2019 levels by 16%.
roger1818
Senior Member
Something is not quite right about those numbers, as they show ridership in 2022 and 2021 on the Maple Leaf. In fact, ridership in 2022 was almost as high as it was in 2019. The only thing I can think of is that the Maple Leaf continued to run during COVID, but terminated in Niagara Falls, NY and much of the 2023 ridership is south of the boarder O&D.
chrisw
Active Member
Yes, the vast majority are not crossing the border.
roger1818
Senior Member
Thinking even more about this, something still doesn't seem right with these numbers. According to Amtrak's current schedule, there are 8 "Empire Service" trains on weekdays (each way). Of those, 6 terminate at Albany-Rensselaer and 2 terminate at Niagara Falls, NY. There is no way that the 8 "Empire Service" trains only have less than 3 times the ridership seen on the one "Maple Leaf" train a day. The only explanation to me that makes sense is in the report, they are including the ridership on the other 2 "Empire Service" trains that continue to Niagara Falls in the "Maple Leaf's" statistics (possibly only looking at passengers that board/alight east of Albany-Rensselaer). Regardless, they are great numbers, but makes more sense when compared against the "Adirondack" and the "Ethen Allen Express."
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Given that the Maple Leaf shares 85% of its route with the Empire Service train, I would always combine both figures and look at these services together…
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micheal_can
Senior Member
What would be nice to see in those numbers are there numbers between the 2 Niagara Falls stations and the numbers between Niagara Falls ON and Toronto. My guess is GO knows them and that is why they added service there.
It would be interesting to take all of the Amtrak services that cross into Canada to see just how much actually cross the border.
It would be interesting to take all of the Amtrak services that cross into Canada to see just how much actually cross the border.