Urban Sky
Senior Member
Certainly explains why Amtrak cancelled the Adirondack altogether (at least North of Albany) when Covid (in 2020-23) and heat slow orders on the Canadian side (in summer 2023) made service into Montréal unviable…
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Certainly explains why Amtrak cancelled the Adirondack altogether (at least North of Albany) when Covid (in 2020-23) and heat slow orders on the Canadian side (in summer 2023) made service into Montréal unviable…
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Would there be any utility in creating a rail connection at Gananoque/Kingston. Would there be significant savings in this routing for a NY/Toronto line, vs the round the lake route?
It looks like there is a ~40 Km gap between the rail lines around Fort Drum and the rail lines on the Canadian side.
**Edit**
On review the travel distance would not be significantly shorter. So that's a big no.
It looks like there is a ~40 Km gap between the rail lines around Fort Drum and the rail lines on the Canadian side.
**Edit**
On review the travel distance would not be significantly shorter. So that's a big no.
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
My standard four questions to help us assess any such suggestions would be:
1) What is the problem I identified?
2) Why do I believe that the problem needs to be addressed?
3) What solution do I see for the problem?
4) Why do I believe that my solution addresses the identified problem better than the Status Quo and/or a solution which someone else has proposed?
Quick reminder also that if train/car miles were such a significant cost driver for freight railroads, CN and CP most likely would have kept their Sudbury/Capreol-Ottawa/Montreal links rather than routing all traffic via Toronto…
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crs1026
Superstar
The short answer is, it would be hugely expensive and not particularly marketable.
That chart shows that the current revenue from the Maple Leaf is $24.6M. How much can one afford to spend to double that ?
The Maple Leaf is an extension of a train that is likely to run anyways, and with a state subsidy at that. It runs on a high quality freight line that has the necessary capacity, has seen considerable investment to deliver the passenger capacity, shares the overhead for stations etc with other trains on that route. It runs through major population centers so enjoys local ridership which shares cost with the cross border business.
The remaining rail lines through Fort Drum and upper New York state are only secondary lines, would need considerable upgrading, and take circuitous routes through no particularly large population centers.
Sorry, but this is a complete non-starter.
- Paul
micheal_can
Senior Member
As the resident "fantasy"poster... I don't see what savings it would give other than a direct connection to the USA from Kingston.
crs1026
Superstar
As much as I hate airports and like the idea of creating alternatives to air travel, we have to keep the big picture of VIA's international routes in mind. The total ridership of the Maple Leaf only replaces one slot at JFK or La Gardia.
The market may more be intermediate local towns where the effort to reach an airport is greater. But even there - I can see Hamilton offering enough direct flight capacity to the Big Apple that folks from Welland or Grimsby are not likely to benefit from an international train.
Just getting these routes to the point where a single train (or two) is sustainable is a steep slope. Routes that offer an extension to an existing corridor have the most potential... routes where the cross border train stands on its own will be harder to justify.
Maybe one day Buffalo-Albany-New York will justify HSR and be air competitive. But not in my lifetime.
- Paul
The market may more be intermediate local towns where the effort to reach an airport is greater. But even there - I can see Hamilton offering enough direct flight capacity to the Big Apple that folks from Welland or Grimsby are not likely to benefit from an international train.
Just getting these routes to the point where a single train (or two) is sustainable is a steep slope. Routes that offer an extension to an existing corridor have the most potential... routes where the cross border train stands on its own will be harder to justify.
Maybe one day Buffalo-Albany-New York will justify HSR and be air competitive. But not in my lifetime.
- Paul
micheal_can
Senior Member
Historically, has there ever been another passenger rail cross border route between Montreal and Toronto?
roger1818
Senior Member
New York Central had a line up to Ottawa via Cornwall, but it was torn up ages ago.
Edit: Wikipedia has a page on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_and_Ottawa_Railway
crs1026
Superstar
New York Central had through service New York City to Clayton NY and Morristown/Ogdensburg NY, which were linked to Canada by ferry.
And NYC had a direct Montreal-Utica train via Malone that connected to points west on the Water Level Route,
- Paul
And NYC had a direct Montreal-Utica train via Malone that connected to points west on the Water Level Route,
- Paul
micheal_can
Senior Member
Without an existing rail bridge, the cost to do it would not even be worth exploring. Due to the Seaway height restrictions, that bridge would become very expensive. Even in my fantasy world, this is a dead thing.
roger1818
Senior Member
AFAIK, the only existing rail crossing of the St. Laurence Seaway "between Montreal and Toronto" is at Coteau.
lrt's friend
Active Member
This will be of interest to this discussion concerning the New York Central Railway that formerly ran between Ottawa and Tupper Lake, New York with connection to New York City.
http://www.gloucesterhistory.com/Historic Gloucester Volume 21 No 3.pdf
http://www.gloucesterhistory.com/Historic Gloucester Volume 21 No 3.pdf
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Siemens set 12 en route.
Garuda
Active Member
Please tell me that location is called Foamers Park
crs1026
Superstar
It is a railfan park, yes. Rochelle IL. The UPE cars were assembled just up the road.
- Paul