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dowlingm said:
Since Nippon Sharyo just closed its doors, the market in RDCs is likely to stay strong for the foreseeable future.
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I'd missed that!
Posted Aug 17, 2018 at 2:46 PMUpdated Aug 17, 2018 at 6:53 PM

ROCHELLE — Japanese passenger rail car manufacturer Nippon Sharyo is closing its Rochelle plant after a six-year run.

“For more than a year now, Nippon Sharyo has been reducing its workforce at the Rochelle plant to meet a decreased workload around the company’s North American operations. The closure of the plant is the final step in that process,” the company said in a statement. “While this is not the outcome we would have wanted, and are disappointed for our staff and the community, we are heartened that most of our employees have been able to find employment elsewhere.”

The company will be vacating its Rochelle plant by the end of the month, Rochelle City Manager Jeff Fiegenschuh said.
[...]
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http://www.rrstar.com/news/20180817/nippon-sharyo-to-close-manufacturing-plant-in-rochelle

Two orphans standing alone: UPX and SMART. Ostensibly there's a market for the UPX ones to SMART, funding down there permitting, but SMART isn't doing so well from reports:

Marin Voice: The SMART train is not at all off to 'an impressive start'
Marin Independent Journal-Sep. 2, 2018
A recent Independent Journal editorial on SMART claimed the first year of ... now pays about $123 a year for Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit.

And yet:

SMART gets funding for Windsor extension in Sonoma County
North Bay Business Journal-Sep. 20, 2018
The Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit board of directors Wednesday authorized spending $24 million to launch the next, highly anticipated ...

I suspect the UPX and SMART fleets will be merged into one at some point. Where does that leave the RDCs? I thought some if not all of them had been refurbished. Whether that fills the market niche for now for VIA is a good question. What appears unavoidable, FRA moving on regs or not, is that TC start accepting EC/UIC regs more widely. The Talents were good vehicles, just not opportune for the Ottawa task. That's the future for DMUs in Canada.

micheal_can said:
My point was that it is normal for Canada to keep the antiquated equipment long after it should be.
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If the old Chevrolet pickup can still start every morning, and do highway speed, it's as good if not better to do the shopping than a Lamborghini.
 
steveintoronto said:
If the old Chevrolet pickup can still start every morning, and do highway speed, it's as good if not better to do the shopping than a Lamborghini.
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So long as you know a good wrecker who keeps parts in inventory, sure.

When you are paying people to custom fabricate those parts, because nobody stocks them any longer, or even has diagrams for them, not so much.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
So long as you know a good wrecker who keeps parts in inventory, sure.

When you are paying people to custom fabricate those parts, because nobody stocks them any longer, or even has diagrams for them, not so much.

- Paul
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Then what do suggest as an alternative? I think there's some excellent ones. Perhaps twenty or so worldwide available, TC might think otherwise. Let's start with the O-Train Talents still up for sale IIRC, and still current in European fleets. TC was allowing them to run on federally regulated track with a waiver. Worth discussing?

Meantime:
February 26, 2016
Budd Rail Diesel Cars to return to Southern Ontario?
[...]
More details from the VIA Rail website:

The RDC fleet is being improved to ensure reliable service and upgrade interior comfort.

Structural upgrades include engine, transmission, heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) systems and refrigeration system replacements. Our goal is to achieve substantial fuel savings, while extending the life of our trains with new parts.

The trains will also feature fully-rebuilt diesel engines that meet Euro II emission standards and fully-rebuilt air brakes. There will be new cabs at one end of each RDC with new operator controls, and new LED lighting. A new camera system will record the operator’s track view from the cab, enhancing safety and minimizing wait time if a delay-causing incident occurs, allowing VIA to deliver passengers as quickly as possible.

New wheelchair lifts are now available on either side of the cars, allowing passengers to embark or unload at any station, regardless of which side the track is on.

In addition, we’ll be adding a modern touch to interiors with features designed for passenger comfort, including improved accessibility for passengers with special mobility needs. RDC train seats will be treated to new foam and reupholstered in bright new fabrics. As well the cars will feature new toilets with environmentally-friendly retention systems in redesigned, accessible washrooms.
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Earlier this week, Hunter Holmes caught a pair of RDC units being test-run on the Chatham subdivision: [...]
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https://quotulatiousness.ca/blog/2016/02/26/budd-rail-diesel-cars-to-return-to-southern-ontario/

So what's the option? See them sit idle in yards after refits, replace them, or whistle Dixie?
 
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There are a bunch of RDCs in Vermont (previously Texas). If that venture doesn’t go anywhere, VIA might go shopping.

The other place Metrolinx DMUs could end up (assuming eventual replacement by EMUs) is Portland. They tried to take up one of SMART’s options but Nippon seemingly didn’t want to go for it (at that point they presumably thought they didn’t need DMU orders, given the mid west bilevel order which they later screwed up). It’s a shame that the design seems to have hit a dead end given the engineering work done both to create them and then fix the Cummins issues.
 
steveintoronto said:
Then what do suggest as an alternative? I think there's some excellent ones. Perhaps twenty or so worldwide available, TC might think otherwise. Let's start with the O-Train Talents still up for sale IIRC, and still current in European fleets. TC was allowing them to run on federally regulated track with a waiver. Worth discussing?

So what's the option? See them sit idle in yards after refits, replace them, or whistle Dixie?
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Well, the first question would be - what’s the sturdiest of the 20 on your list? How far short of North American standards is it? How feasible would it be to strengthen it to the degree needed? What would that cost? How big an order would be necessary?

The might question would be - how big an order would be possible if several agencies cooperated on a bulk order?

The third question would be - what is the capital and operating cost differential between a three car DMU and three basic TC-approvable coaches plus a basic standard locomotive? I have never seen actual data.

I don’t have a magic bullet solution. I don’t object to continuing to use RDC’s on existing routes eg White River. What I find unrealistic is new ideas for new branch line services that presume that a bunch of RDC’s can be found in the weeds somewhere and brought to 2019 standards.

BTW I am currently across the pond, riding numerous brands of DMU’s that might well be on your list. I felt quite safe riding at up to 100 mph. It would be interesting to know if they are marginally below TC/FRA standards, versus so far below that they crumple like a pop can. Let’s find out....Take a couple to the test facility at Pueblo and wreck ‘em under controlled conditions.

We lack the data to know if TC is excessively cautious or not..... and equally unclear whether it matters, ie a conventional train might cost about the same.... but the prevalence of EMU’s elsewhere makes me agree that TC may be overcautious.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
So long as you know a good wrecker who keeps parts in inventory, sure.

When you are paying people to custom fabricate those parts, because nobody stocks them any longer, or even has diagrams for them, not so much.

- Paul
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The comparison to a mass production car is misleading at best.

Its not like there is an alternative to the RDC thats a mass produced, TC/FRA legal DMU that everyone and their cousin has sitting in their driveway with a dealership in every city.

No matter what route you go, the parts are going to be rare, the machines are going to be fairly custom. Even new.

Look at the UPX DMUS, there are like what, 20 in the world that exist? And now they are shutting down the factory, no more will be made.

And that is a brand new vehicle.
 
robmausser said:
The comparison to a mass production car is misleading at best.

Its not like there is an alternative to the RDC thats a mass produced, TC/FRA legal DMU that everyone and their cousin has sitting in their driveway with a dealership in every city.

No matter what route you go, the parts are going to be rare, the machines are going to be fairly custom. Even new.

Look at the UPX DMUS, there are like what, 20 in the world that exist? And now they are shutting down the factory, no more will be made.

And that is a brand new vehicle.
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Some parts, such as the trucks, the car body, etc. are going to be rare because they are designed and built to the vehicle.

But others - the motors, transmissions, final drives, brake equipment, etc. - are standard, off-the-shelf components with parts that can be easily sourced for. Even the RDCs - there's a reason why VIA re-powered all of theirs in the late 1980s. It was getting impossible to find the original DD motors, transmissions and final drives, so they went and sourced components that were much newer and still in use.

In the case of the UPX DMUs, the motors are used on over 2000 vehicles around the world. The transmissions and final drives are a little less common, but still fairly easily found.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
crs1026 said:
Well, the first question would be - what’s the sturdiest of the 20 on your list? How far short of North American standards is it? How feasible would it be to strengthen it to the degree needed? What would that cost? How big an order would be necessary?
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I dug on the mentioned Bombardier Talent before posting yesterday. It not only got a waiver from TC for Transpo OC (which may or may not be repeated for UPX if asked) but the Talent continues to be a mainline workhorse in Europe, it's now up to the Talent 3 model, which has pretty darn good performance characteristics:

[...]
High capacity, high acceleration
The TALENT 3 train is a state-of-the-art, modular solution that can easily adapt to the needs of customers. The train’s spacious interior provides a comfortable journey for passengers due to efficient positioning of traction equipment, allowing maximum use of interior space. The TALENT 3 commuter train also offers:

  • Speeds of up to 160 km/h
  • High capacity
  • High acceleration
  • Up to 10 per cent energy reduction due to regenerative breaking and the use of MITRAC Energy Saver solution
  • FLEXX Compact bogie for high mileage and low maintenance costs
  • One to two doors per car side
  • Up to six cars per train
  • Different entrance heights for safe and easy boarding from all platform levels [...]
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https://rail.bombardier.com/en/solutions-and-technologies/urban/commuter.html
smallspy said:
In the case of the UPX DMUs, the motors are used on over 2000 vehicles around the world. The transmissions and final drives are a little less common, but still fairly easily found.
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The most common prime motor for DMUs in the world! And variations used in other vehicles too.

ZF gearbox is derived from bus ones, shares many of the same parts. I often wonder on the next engine overhaul for those vehicles if an uprated version can be installed with 30% increase in output, and a unpowered trailer inserted in between two of the present ones to form more consists. SMART subbed out their motors with the big end problem, I think GO were waiting until they threw rods to do that.

Don't know if Nippon still have the dies/jigs for the bodies, but that would be one worthwhile acquisition to consider. If not, then generic non-powered coaches.

Other than using a Cardan shaft (advantage is simplicity, weight saving and no conversion loss) the Nippons are sensible units now the bugs have ostensibly been ironed out. Since I don't see electrification as promised happening any time soon, best to maximize what's on the plate.

But there's still those three Talents for sale in Ottawa...

Many of the possible DMUs available use the Cummins motor, and some, prior considered too light for TC regs (Class 158, earlier Cummins model engine, 220, 221, 222 and others the QSK90) can really outperform the UPX with the same engine, even with electric traction (DEMUs). https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/union-pearson-express-powered-by-cummins/

This may seem to take this VIA string off-topic, but it doesn't, especially if VIA is bidding on commuter operations like Halifax (which has hit a funding glitch).

Edit to Add:

More than HFR speed (125 mph) using the same basic Cummins motor as the Nippons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_222

There's lots of choices available, the DEMUs especially prime as later conversion to electric is much more straightforward.

Meantime, what's with the RDCs languishing in the yards?
crs1026 said:
Take a couple to the test facility at Pueblo and wreck ‘em under controlled conditions.
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I wonder what TC base their acceptance of the Talents on? Temporal separation is a given, but for the UPX path, that's already the case.
 
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