[Bordercollie]

Nobody questions the need to replace 50+ year old equipment. Things only start to become questionable when people here start suggesting to chose a rolling stock design which requires expensive modifications to existing infrastructure over alternative designs which don’t.

You certainly can enjoy the cost savings and revenue gains associated with operating a modern fleet without causing the need for expensive modifications to the existing infrastructure...

Well if you look at how the TTC changed to the Rocket cars, they needed to upgrade the maintenance facilities to accommodate 6 car married trains. There was an gain in passenger volume of 20% and had operational efficiencies also. Without the upgrades to those facilities, they could not operate the new rolling stock.

Also with Toronto Street cars, Leslie barns was specifically designed to house the new street cars. So there are examples of this, it's just whether or not this needs to apply in VIA"s case is another story.

 

[Urban Sky]

Well if you look at how the TTC changed to the Rocket cars, they needed to upgrade the maintenance facilities to accommodate 6 car married trains. There was an gain in passenger volume of 20% and had operational efficiencies also. Without the upgrades to those facilities, they could not operate the new rolling stock.

Also with Toronto Street cars, Leslie barns was specifically designed to house the new street cars. So there are examples of this, it's just whether or not this needs to apply in VIA"s case is another story.

All the examples you quote are maintenance facilities (and thus in line with what VIA is doing), not stations which may only see a train a dozen of times per week (as is the case with Winnipeg’s Union Station)...

 

[roger1818]

The cars are taller than the Superliners which already have enough potential sizing headaches on VIA's network.

The cars don't fit into the trainshed at Winnipeg, and probably don't fit into the trainshed at Union - which complicated operations when the cars were deadheaded across on the Canadian for work.

Would Superliners fit in the trainsheds at both Winnipeg and Toronto's Union Stations, or is that what you mean by "already have enough potential sizing headaches on VIA's network?"

 

[Allandale25]

^ I think Superliners were used for the Chicago to Union trip before it was canceled? So if my memory is correct then I assume they would. I think I read earlier in this thread the Winnipeg shed is lower than Union's?

Update: I checked Wikipedia and it provided the picture below and this article.

 

[robmausser]

^ I think Superliners were used for the Chicago to Union trip before it was canceled? So if my memory is correct then I assume they would. I think I read earlier in this thread the Winnipeg shed is lower than Union's?

Update: I checked Wikipedia and it provided the picture below and this article.

View attachment 286685

I used to take the train from Sarnia to Kitchener and I would LOVE when it was the Amtrak train instead of the VIA one. The cars were simply better with a snack car and a dinner car with tables to sit at etc.

 

[Urban Sky]

^ I think Superliners were used for the Chicago to Union trip before it was canceled? So if my memory is correct then I assume they would. I think I read earlier in this thread the Winnipeg shed is lower than Union's?

Update: I checked Wikipedia and it provided the picture below and this article.

View attachment 286685

...which leads us to the incident which caused the withdrawal of the Superliners from that route:

Railway Investigation Report R99S0100 - Transportation Safety Board of Canada

Crossing Collision/Derailment, VIA Rail Canada Inc., Passenger Train No 85, Mile 33.54, Goderich-Exeter Railway, (GEXR) Guelph Subdivision, Limehouse, Ontario. 09 November 1999

www.bst-tsb.gc.ca

 

[kEiThZ]

I am just here waiting for that HFR report to come out.....

 

[micheal_can]

That's not mathematically possible. At least over any reasonable timeframe.

Define reasonable. The current RDC are over 50 year old. So, in 50 years, the MF would pay for itself.

 

[Urban Sky]

Define reasonable. The current RDC are over 50 year old. So, in 50 years, the MF would pay for itself.

Just a quick reality check for everyone who might think that the above merits a serious response: VIA has only 6 RDCs in its active fleet and upgrading a maintenance facility can easily cost an eight-digit amount...

 

[Bordercollie]

Can't use 'em in Montreal Central as they have no low floor platforms there, and now a high floor platform is going into Ottawa too.

The Bombardier Multi Levels have a lower door and a high platform door. I'm sure that they could do that with other models. Even for GO Bi-levels they can put a door over the area of the trucks.

 

[roger1818]

Just a quick reality check for everyone who might think that the above merits a serious response: VIA has only 6 RDCs in its active fleet and upgrading a maintenance facility can easily cost an eight-digit amount...

And like usual he only replied to the post that he thought he could argue against, and completely ignores the better arguments against his point.

 

[Urban Sky]

The Bombardier Multi Levels have a lower door and a high platform door. I'm sure that they could do that with other models. Even for GO Bi-levels they can put a door over the area of the trucks.

Double-decker trains have excessive axle loads, poor accessibility (not just for wheelchair users, but for “golden age” passengers in general - which are the key demographic for long-distance recreational train travel), very limited storage space for personal items (thanks to vertical - and on the upper deck also: horizontal - space constraints) and are difficult to evacuate in the case of an emergency (see the investigation report I just linked).

With the E1 and E4 series Shinkansen having been withdrawn in Japan, I struggle to name any double-decker intercity trains still in operation around the world other than the TGV Duplex, some InterCity trains in Switzerland and of course Amtrak’s Superliners.

Having railroaded extensively across Japan for three weeks, the only double-decker cars I saw were the two cars for Green Class (i.e. First Class) ticket holders awkwardly placed into the middle of the otherwise single-level trainset of the Utsunomiya Line in Tokyo:

Source: User TC411-507 via Wikimedia

If even Japan with its massive rail usage seems to actively avoid double-decker cars, then maybe they represent a compromise which only appeals in those rare circumstances where you already have maxed out on frequency and train/platform length and the only way to increase capacity is to cram more people or seats into every meter of train length. These exceptions exist, but certainly not in Canada (where Commuter Rail operators only rely on them to compensate for their inability to operate their trains at a frequency remotely comparable to RER/S-Bahn networks across Europe and Asia)...

 

[ManyQuestions]

Double-decker trains have excessive axle loads, poor accessibility (not just for wheelchair users, but for “golden age” passengers in general - which are the key demographic for long-distance recreational train travel), very limited storage space for personal items (thanks to vertical - and on the upper deck also: horizontal - space constraints)

The lack of personal space was the main reason why I was questioning the use of GO trainsets for longer regional routes such as Toronto to Niagara. Assuming that they are configured similarly to the trains operated by EXO, they must have a very limited amount of storage space for personal items. The intercity double deck trains that I traveled on in France and Switzerland made up for the lack of personal storage by including large luggage racks at each end of each carriage, but that was only because they were intentionally configured for such travel. However, I understand that the GO trains are simply reusing equipment that would be otherwise be unused during lower weekend frequencies on the core network.

As for other countries with double-decker intercity trains, I recently saw that DB was getting some Stadler units for their intercity services.

Stadler KISS Trains to Operate DB IC2 Services | Railway-News

DB will put the first Stadler KISS double-decker trains into service (IC2) on 8 March. It purchased them from Westbahn (Austria) last year.

railway-news.com

 

[Allandale25]

This gives a good perspective of the height of the Winnipeg shed.

A photo I took at Winnipeg, Manitoba on a very chilly December, 1978 morning. I suspect the VIA RDC was Thunder Bay bound over the CN / DW&P route through the U.S.

John Cowan photo.

 

[roger1818]

This gives a good perspective of the height of the Winnipeg shed.

View attachment 286729

That is a very odd photo, with a VIA RDC and a CN locomotive pulling CP Rail stainless steel coaches with an action red stripe.