[kEiThZ]

Increasing frequency is the by-far most cost-effective way to decrease perceived travel times...

Yep. And looking at the GJT, I would argue that half hourly service is the absolute minimum before any kind of service splitting can be considered. And that's just on the diminishing returns on the perceived travel time. We're not even looking at the business case for a whole other corridor, to be built to HSR standards for 1 train per hour.

Canadian railfans are a weird breed. We don't even have HFR yet and people are dreaming of split services at frequencies lower than what Renfe, Deutsche Bahn and JR Central would run at. I imagine if I told the Japanese that the Tokaido Shinkansen should skip Nagoya to save 10-15 mins between Tokyo and Osaka, they'd find it pretty funny. And they run those trains every 15-20 mins at peak and every 30 mins off-peak.

 

[nfitz]

And yet we are skipping Kingston to save a few minutes ... despite having a bigger demand to Toronto than Quebec City to Ottawa.

 

[kEiThZ]

And yet we are skipping Kingston to save a few minutes ... despite having a bigger demand to Toronto than Quebec City to Ottawa.

How is Kingston being "skipped" when it gets its own hub and originating service to Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal?

 

[Urban Sky]

And yet we are skipping Kingston to save a few minutes ... despite having a bigger demand to Toronto than Quebec City to Ottawa.

Currently (i.e. pre-CoVid), only trains 68 and 646 skip the stop in Kingston.

As for Quebec City to Ottawa, you don’t seem to grasp the difference between a plane making point-to-point connections and a train serving a string of stops: Therefore, what matters is the total demand on the QBEC-MTRL and MTRL-OTTW segments, i.e. the sum of the demands for any O-D pairs using these segments, of which QBEC-OTTW is just a small subset...

 

[kEiThZ]

As for Quebec City to Ottawa

And brings up "skipping" Kingston while advocating for bypassing a metro that is 8x the size, the 6th largest metro in the country, and the national capital, on a route between the largest and second largest metros. Some bizarre logic.

 

[nfitz]

And brings up "skipping" Kingston while advocating for bypassing a metro that is 8x the size, the 6th largest metro in the country, and the national capital, on a route between the largest and second largest metros. Some bizarre logic.

Don't twist my words. I've advocated that the current service to Ottawa be increased - running through Kingston.

Are you claiming there won't be service cuts to the Toronto-Kingston service if they build HFR from Toronto to Montreal through Ottawa? Based on what I've seen elsewhere, I'd expect less trains, and the runs that survive are going to be stopping services, rather than expresses.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'd expect less trains, and the runs that survive are going to be stopping services, rather than expresses.

And? Kingston is so precious they have to throw Trenton and Port Hope under the bus? Interesting logic. So basically, the entire Corridor East service concept should be based around the existing schedule in Kingston? Do you own real estate in Kingston?

Don't twist my words. I've advocated that the current service to Ottawa be increased - running through Kingston.

What was the discussion on the Winchester sub about? How do you increase service to Ottawa while bypassing it?

 

[MisterF]

Don't twist my words. I've advocated that the current service to Ottawa be increased - running through Kingston.

How would this address the issue of trains being constantly late because of CN, even on padded schedules? Or Via not being able to schedule trains when they want because they don't control the tracks? How would it reduce travel times to Ottawa the way that HFR will?

 

[kEiThZ]

It's incredible that people think rail service between the first, second and sixth largest metros in the country should be held hostage by the 25th largest metro in the country. This is why nothing ever gets built in this country.

I'm happy that Kingston is getting a hub. I'm happy that they are getting service that is tailored to them. Insisting that Toronto-Ottawa traffic take a longer and slower route and have frequencies split from Toronto-Montreal, just to serve Kingston? This is the kind of aggressive ignorance that prevents progress in this country.

 

[nfitz]

It's incredible that people think rail service between the first, second and sixth largest metros in the country should be held hostage by the 25th largest metro in the country. This is why nothing ever gets built in this country.

I'm happy that Kingston is getting a hub. I'm happy that they are getting service that is tailored to them. Insisting that Toronto-Ottawa traffic take a longer and slower route and have frequencies split from Toronto-Montreal, just to serve Kingston? This is the kind of aggressive ignorance that prevents progress in this country.

I literally never said any of that.

VIA Fast travel times through Kingston are as fast as HFR through Peterborough. Toronto-Montreal is faster.

How would this address the issue of trains being constantly late because of CN, even on padded schedules? Or Via not being able to schedule trains when they want because they don't control the tracks? How would it reduce travel times to Ottawa the way that HFR will?

Lots of ways one could do it. Extra track. Legislative controls.

Heck, CN is worth $100 billion. Buy it, give the corridor track to VIA. Sell the rest.

Probably other solutions that I didn't think of in 30 seconds ...

 

[Urban Sky]

Lots of ways one could do it. Extra track. Legislative controls.

Heck, CN is worth $100 billion. Buy it, give the corridor track to VIA. Sell the rest.

Probably other solutions that I didn't think of in 30 seconds ...

It is this kind of “solutions” which makes me dread that we don’t have a fantasy rail thread for everything which lacks any consideration for what is politically feasible in this country...

 

[kEiThZ]

VIA Fast travel times through Kingston are as fast as HFR through Peterborough. Toronto-Montreal is faster.

And you know that a 20 yr old paper exercise holds true today because?

 

[MisterF]

Lots of ways one could do it. Extra track. Legislative controls.

Heck, CN is worth $100 billion. Buy it, give the corridor track to VIA. Sell the rest.

Probably other solutions that I didn't think of in 30 seconds ...

In other words, "I reject your reality and substitute my own". All of what you're suggesting has been either rejected by governments of all stripes going back decades, or tried and failed because of the constraints that governments refuse to lift.

Via Rail has created a plan that takes all those constraints into account and actually has a chance of succeeding in the real world.

 

[nfitz]

And you know that a 20 yr old paper exercise holds true today because?

Well heck, if they bought the single-track milk run through Peterborough, they'll buy anything!

Via Rail has created a plan that takes all those constraints into account and actually has a chance of succeeding in the real world.

It also has a chance of failing miserably, costing a lot more than anticipated (less of a problem if you are adding track along existing alignments), not delivering the optimistic run times, and accelerating the end of inter-provincial passenger rail in this country.

Has the current Minister of Transportation ever even mentioned this file?

 

[EnviroTO]

Heck, CN is worth $100 billion. Buy it, give the corridor track to VIA. Sell the rest.

If the government has $100 billion sitting around, they might as well build HSR Toronto - Oshawa - Peterborough - Belleville - Kingston - Ottawa and be done with it. Ottawa by-pass still wouldn't make sense mind you, as you would need to have something like $500 billion, so you could complete the Windsor-Quebec corridor first, for that to start to make sense.