[Wahed]

I'm booked for a trip from Toronto to Ottawa tomorrow (Tuesday December 27). Anybody care to weigh in or wager:

1) will service be running tomorrow?

2) if yes, what are the odds I will be riding the new fleet

3) if service is cancelled, what time today (Monday December 26) via will announce this?

Happy to report we are on the train, we were only delayed one hour. Unfortunately not on the new fleet. As for communications, via let's us know around nine pm last night that service was running and that our trains definitely departure was pushed back one hour.

 

[Bordercollie]

If I had been in that situation I probably would have walked off after a couple hours as well, given that there were lots of options within a short walk (restaurants, houses etc). It wouldn't be the first time I wandered around a city during a blizzard. However from what we now know, that may have been a bad decision given that Cobourg had a power failure at the time. So in some ways the people in the train were actually better off than the residents of Cobourg, since they still had heat and light. But those buildings still presumably had food, water and functioning toilets so when VIA realized that it would be many hours before a rescue train could arrive, then those options should have become very relevant.

The rate at which people consume food and water, and fill up the toilets, is relatively consistent and thus predictable. VIA knows how much food/water is aboard, and they know how long it's been since the toilets were emptied. Based on these numbers, every VIA train should always have an implicit timer running for the maximum time customers can shelter aboard. Response plans do take into account the maximum allowable work time for locomotive engineers, and similarly they should also take into account the maximum time that the passengers can remain aboard the train. We have had multiple incidents on multiple railways where passengers have been left on a train beyond the point where it continued to function as an effective shelter, so there appears to be a systemic issue here.

It's not VIA's fault that there was a blizzard, or that the CN line was blocked, and it might not have been their fault that a rescue train couldn't reach the stranded train. But they need to take responsibility at the very least for the lack of communication and continued misinformation their (automated) systems were providing people both inside and outside that train.

This reminds me of how VIA consistently blames CN for the fact that they have appalling on-time performance. Yes, CN is resonsible for many if not most delays, but VIA needs to take responsibility for the delays caused by their own boarding procedures, as well as the fact that many of their schedules are unrealistic to the point of being physically impossible (e.g. VIA 87 between Kitchener and London).

I would say that if it takes 4 hours to get from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal that nobody should be left on that train for longer than 8 hours. Your goal should be to remove all of the passengers by that time.

 

[Urban Sky]

I would say that if it takes 4 hours to get from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal that nobody should be left on that train for longer than 8 hours. Your goal should be to remove all of the passengers by that time.

Whatever your goal might be, I don’t think it is realistic to expect to meet it in what some people have aptly called a “perfect storm”: a winter storm the day before Christmas, where maybe a dozen exceptionally full trains were immobilized and some hit by a tree while major roads were impassible and CN suffered a derailment on the Kingston Sub…

 

[lenaitch]

I see a great similarity to airline ops, in that in theory the pilot of an aircraft is a powerful person with whom the buck stops to a huge degree. But when a plane arrives and is told to wait on the tarmac for hours before debarking, can only shrug and nestle down in their cockpit seat and pass the matter off as “airline policy”

One common thread running through both commercial passenger airlines and passenger rail is the number of players involved. Even with more empowered employees, they still can't colour outside of their respective lines. It's one thing for a conductor to have the unilateral decision and purchasing authority to order up a dozen pizzas, but probably quite another for an engineer to make a unilateral determination that their damaged but functioning train can be moved a short distance to a station or road crossing.

Another common thread I see, and it has appeared at times that were much less dramatic and widespread as this recent storm, is the abject failure of just about everybody's customer service portals, be they websites, phone operators, or whatever. From what I am reading, not only do they lack surge capacity, they seem to operate in opposition to each other.

I, too, applaud the folks at the Chatham Walmart for stepping up to the plate. Whether it was a matter of 'permission vs. forgiveness' the management and staff deserve recognition. This is not the first time there has been weather-related 'mass strandings' in s/w Ontario, and typically businesses, institutions and private citizens step up to the plate. It is curious that when people are stranded in vehicles on highways, emergency services, farmers, just about anybody who is able are willing to go out and rescue people, but when it on the private properties of railways or airports, it becomes a problem rather than a solution.

 

[Bordercollie]

One common thread running through both commercial passenger airlines and passenger rail is the number of players involved. Even with more empowered employees, they still can't colour outside of their respective lines. It's one thing for a conductor to have the unilateral decision and purchasing authority to order up a dozen pizzas, but probably quite another for an engineer to make a unilateral determination that their damaged but functioning train can be moved a short distance to a station or road crossing.

Another common thread I see, and it has appeared at times that were much less dramatic and widespread as this recent storm, is the abject failure of just about everybody's customer service portals, be they websites, phone operators, or whatever. From what I am reading, not only do they lack surge capacity, they seem to operate in opposition to each other.

I, too, applaud the folks at the Chatham Walmart for stepping up to the plate. Whether it was a matter of 'permission vs. forgiveness' the management and staff deserve recognition. This is not the first time there has been weather-related 'mass strandings' in s/w Ontario, and typically businesses, institutions and private citizens step up to the plate. It is curious that when people are stranded in vehicles on highways, emergency services, farmers, just about anybody who is able are willing to go out and rescue people, but when it on the private properties of railways or airports, it becomes a problem rather than a solution.

If the tree was in the way they couldn't move the train, but if they called fire/ems could they free the train and have it limp to the station? Instead of waiting 18 hours for CN to show up?

The train master may not have that authority to order pizza for everyone but someone at head office should.

It may not be realistic to try to get people off the train in 4 hours or 8 but something could have been done in the 18 hours it took to resolve the situation.

Do we know how the train was eventually rescued?

 

[lenaitch]

If the tree was in the way they couldn't move the train, but if they called fire/ems could they free the train and have it limp to the station? Instead of waiting 18 hours for CN to show up?

The train master may not have that authority to order pizza for everyone but someone at head office should.

It may not be realistic to try to get people off the train in 4 hours or 8 but something could have been done in the 18 hours it took to resolve the situation.

Do we know how the train was eventually rescued?

Well, EMS certainly wouldn't have the equipment to free the train (if, in fact, it needed 'freeing'). An urban Fire/Rescue service *might* carry chainsaws, and firefighters are generally pretty handy folks, but it comes back to training and authority.

 

[Northern Light]

I, too, applaud the folks at the Chatham Walmart for stepping up to the plate. Whether it was a matter of 'permission vs. forgiveness' the management and staff deserve recognition. This is not the first time there has been weather-related 'mass strandings' in s/w Ontario, and typically businesses, institutions and private citizens step up to the plate.

It is curious that when people are stranded in vehicles on highways, emergency services, farmers, just about anybody who is able are willing to go out and rescue people, but when it on the private properties of railways or airports, it becomes a problem rather than a solution.

I think it is important to note here that as soon as the private citizen who escaped VIA's clutches, LOL, reached a police office, that local EMS moved quickly and in force to provide assistance.

There is no saying that neighbours might not have done the same, had anyone told them there was a problem, but since VIA and the RTC both didn't bother............

***

A stranded, but not derailed train, up on a embankment, behind some tree cover is far less visible than a log jammed freeway.

 

[lrt's friend]

Oddly the subject of union rules came up in a discussion I had today on a completely different topic. Union rules may have restricted the actions that could be taken and by whom.

 

[crs1026]

^Train crews do encounter fallen trees from time to time, and do clear small obstructions……but this was a *big* tree. Issues of weight, control of heavy falling branches after saw cuts, and possibly the need to climb atop the train. First responders would have tools but as a matter of protocol would not touch it except if there were an urgent need to physically extricate a victim.

So clearly the train was immobilised until a forestry or similar crew with heavier equipment could attend, and it’s good that no one attempted to move it otherwise.

I am told that in the same storm, train 14 to the maritimes had to be halted at Riviere du Loup and brought back to Montreal. So VIA was not totally asleep, but this situation didn’t get much attention.

- Paul

 

[lenaitch]

I think it is important to note here that as soon as the private citizen who escaped VIA's clutches, LOL, reached a police office, that local EMS moved quickly and in force to provide assistance.

There is no saying that neighbours might not have done the same, had anyone told them there was a problem, but since VIA and the RTC both didn't bother............

***

A stranded, but not derailed train, up on a embankment, behind some tree cover is far less visible than log jammed freeway.

One thing that sort of surprises me (and we are focusing here on the train stuck in Cobourg, but it could have been any one of the many others), is that nobody reached out to the local mayor and council to declare an emergency. This might have empowered the local Sally Ann or Red Cross, opened up a public building as a shelter, dispatched a city bus, etc. Available power might have been an issue but every municipality is required to have an emergency plan and many public buildings have generators for this very purpose.

 

[lenaitch]

I am told that in the same storm, train 14 to the maritimes had to be halted at Riviere du Loup and brought back to Montreal. So VIA was not totally asleep, but this situation didn’t get much attention.

Wow - that's quite the backhaul!

 

[Northern Light]

^Train crews do encounter fallen trees from time to time, and do clear small obstructions……but this was a *big* tree. Issues of weight, control of heavy falling branches after saw cuts, and possibly the need to climb atop the train. First responders would have tools but as a matter of protocol would not touch it except if there were an urgent need to physically extricate a victim.

So clearly the train was immobilised until a forestry or similar crew with heavier equipment could attend, and it’s good that no one attempted to move it otherwise.

.....

- Paul

In complete agreement here; but would then add; another VIA trail crew did bring out axes to clear on track debris, and did so successfully and then proceeded. I am not using that example to suggest this was the appropriate course of action here, it surely was not. Rather, I like the initiative shown by the the other crew and that same initiative can be shown any number of other ways, including just phoning 911 from the head end if RTC or VIA HQ aren't being helpful, and you have passengers at risk of diabetic shock, and no working bathrooms. At some point, you just have to own a situation and say; if no one else will lead, I will.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Think how much fun a snowstorm like this would be on a mostly single-track right of way through forest, rock, and bog with no parallel or intersecting roads or settlements for most of the way.

 

[crs1026]

In complete agreement here; but would then add; another VIA trail crew did bring out axes to clear on track debris, and did so successfully and then proceeded. I am not using that example to suggest this was the appropriate course of action here, it surely was not. Rather, I like the initiative shown by the the other crew and that same initiative can be shown any number of other ways, including just phoning 911 from the head end if RTC or VIA HQ aren't being helpful, and you have passengers at risk of diabetic shock, and no working bathrooms. At some point, you just have to own a situation and say; if no one else will lead, I will.

Yeah…. ecxept one person’s willingness to lead may be another person’s “hold my beer” folly. A prerequisite for local initiative is to understand the risks, evaluate the available options, and to stay within some general lines of prudence and common sense.

In this case, there are things that would have clearly been the wrong thing to attempt (such as climbing atop a railcar in icy conditions with an axe and attempting to work without fall arrest) but clearly other things that might have been prudent and possible (find passengers a bathroom, find food, find an off-train shelter, request community support ).

I am taken aback that the severity of the passengers’ plight - which did exceed mere inconvenience, imho - either was not communicated or was not considered worthy of action up the food chain. We don’t know enough about the situation - which was not an easy one, under the circumstances) to be able to say where the weakest link lay.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

Think how much fun a snowstorm like this would be on a mostly single-track right of way through forest, rock, and bog with no parallel or intersecting roads or settlements for most of the way.

On the other hand, it’s rather unlikely that the dispatching of a rescue train onto the Havelock Sub would be impeded by a freight derailment…