[lenaitch]

^Transit properties have “spare board” positions where operators’ assignment is to wait in the lunchroom until handed an assignment. It works, because there are enough variables with dead buses, sick calls, and service disruptions that the “couch drivers” don’t actually sit idle to a degree that would be offensive to the taxpayer.

I’m not sure that VIA needs that degree of redundancy in its operation. But railroading seems to be an extreme case where (perhaps because operating workers are deployed irregularly in the routine moments, with no one having any consistency or predictability in hours) rail workers slide off the face of the planet at quitting time, and the inability to achieve call-ins prevents quick response to incidents.

If one compares to say municipal and provincial Hydro workers, one seldom hears that a blackout in bad weather is extended because the workers couldn’t be called in. I could cite plenty of situations where, when the power went out town-wide, such workers just headed to work on the assumption that they would be needed to get the lights back on (of course, their own power might have been off as well, so it was somewhat self-motivated…)

Back in the days of pagers (amazing how dated that now seems), as a management guy I was required as a condition of employment to carry a pager 24/7 on a 2 weeks on/4 weeks off rotation, with the requirement to be able to reach the plant within 90 minutes, fit for duty….. to hold a role in the plant’s emergency contol centre. There was a small stipend paid for this but that’s all.

To be balanced, I am aware of railway RTE’s who have spent this Christmas in a bunkhouse in an away terminal because this week’s weather forced freight operations to be suspended also…. no way to get them home. I’m not suggesting rail workers have it easy, but VIA sits in the middle of these working extremes with most of its crews working a predictable schedule such that the requirement to respond occasionally in emergencies is not unreasonable.

Someone needs to revisit this, because while the knee-jerk reaction of “it was a holiday, so nobody could be reached” may be indicative of current railway culture, it isn’t a valid norm for a service industry where service stoppages can put customers’ health and well being at risk…. nor is it a modal condition of employment in other regulated, unionised industries.

- Paul

There's probably a lot of factors at play, and workplace culture has changed over time. When I was a road warrior copper in small detachments, coverage was often not 24-hour. It was just a given that you were subject to being called out if a call came in. It was completely informal with a lot of give and take between members. When they started trying to organize and schedule it, the wheels started falling off. Later, as a plain clothes investigator (with a good ol' pager) it was just a given that you carried it 24/7. If you didn't want to do that, don't apply for the job.

Many organizations today tend to treat their employees like a cog, so employees start acting like one, and the collective agreement becomes stone tablets from a mountaintop.

Outside of large divisions like Toronto, when many crew divisions were in relatively small communities I suspect that cobbling together a train crew was a tad easier.

One of the reasons Hydro One et al are able to get crews out in a weather emergency is quite generous provisions for stand-by, on call and overtime. I suspect that with rules about duty and rest time for railway running crews, I doubt similar provisions would be workable. Folks have to remember that if provisions like stand-by place restrictions on how people live their off-duty lives.

I believe that this is impossible without specially-made (or jury-rigged) equipment. The tanks require pumping to remove the waste, and much like the fuel tanks there are a series of contacts on the hose and outlet that need to connect and talk to each other before the process begins.

Jury-rigging would no doubt entail somebody to crawl under the carriages with tools, knowledge and permission -in a storm. Any equipment that had some kind of dump/bypass provision baked into the design would not likely survive any number of federal and provincial laws.

Emergency services reached the train at 10.30pm, presumably commensurate with an non-casualty incident response triage when causality incidents were occurring on roads all over Ontario. striking this as it was what I recalled reading earlier in the week but can’t find supporting documentation for it now (and one piece I did find indicated the tree strike was after that time)

I recall reading that Cobourg PS and paramedics attended after someone called 911. I only assumed this was the train with a tree sticking out of it.

 

[Allandale25]

 

[Wahed]

I'm booked for a trip from Toronto to Ottawa tomorrow (Tuesday December 27). Anybody care to weigh in or wager:

1) will service be running tomorrow?

2) if yes, what are the odds I will be riding the new fleet

3) if service is cancelled, what time today (Monday December 26) via will announce this?

 

[crs1026]

^Videos I have seen show the train sitting underneath what I believe to be the CP overpass west of Cobourg Station, with the tree - a very large one that could not be removed by one or two people with a chain saw - pinning the second coach. One video showed the locomotive's horn sitting in the snow next to the train. I would speculate that the tree scraped along the top of the train for a carlength or two.

It would be difficult for VIA or CN personnel to reach the scene from afar, given that the main roads and highways were treacherous or closed altogether. But the location is not really isolated per se, local first responders would have been able to reach the scene fairly directly (not that they needed the white knuckle drive to get there on top of their other calls).

Most importantly, if I have the location correct - the site would be accessible by a rescue train.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

Video of the scene:

This is a report: from former a former CBC reporter, given by phone to CBC, that was from similarly delayed train, but provides some insights into things.

'Unacceptable': Via Rail cancels all major Christmas Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal routes after storm strands passengers, derails trains

Via Rail is cancelling all Christmas routes to and from Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal after hundreds of people were stranded in the wake of winter weather.

ca.style.yahoo.com

You can clearly see first responders accessing the site from a nearby cul-de-sac. This doesn't look particularly challenging to access, though I will concede I wasn't there.

****

The Minister is clearly not impressed (from the above link)

***

Also of note, the train on which former reporter Kelly Crowe was situated was now on its 3rd train crew; who apparently were supposed to be brought in from Kingston, but no taxi would take them; so they had to drive out to Cobourg in their own vehicles........

Eesh.

 

[Bordercollie]

Video of the scene:

This is a report: from former a former CBC reporter, given by phone to CBC, that was from similarly delayed train, but provides some insights into things.

'Unacceptable': Via Rail cancels all major Christmas Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal routes after storm strands passengers, derails trains

Via Rail is cancelling all Christmas routes to and from Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal after hundreds of people were stranded in the wake of winter weather.

ca.style.yahoo.com

You can clearly see first responders accessing the site from a nearby cul-de-sac. This doesn't look particularly challenging to access, though I will concede I wasn't there.

****

The Minister is clearly not impressed (from the above link)

View attachment 447305

***

Also of note, the train on which former reporter Kelly Crowe was situated was now on its 3rd train crew; who apparently were supposed to be brought in from Kingston, but no taxi would take them; so they had to drive out to Cobourg in their own vehicles........

Eesh.

Thirty CN Rail Cars Derail South of Grafton on Christmas Eve - Today's Northumberland - Your Source For What's Happening Locally and Beyond

It will take upwards of a week to clean-up a train derailment south of Grafton on Saturday, December 24, 2022. On Saturday morning, Alnwick/Haldimand Township Fire Chief Dave Dawson was notified at approximately 11:45 a.m. of a derailment just east of Station Road, south of Grafton. Dawson told...

todaysnorthumberland.ca

It should be some standard procedure that a supervisor or someone from VIA rail should be on site to determine course of action. Not from their dispatch. Maybe you can't do this for remote services but you should be able to do it for the corridor.

It could be that people are CN RTC don't have any process or procedure to offload passenger cars first. Any they probably don't care.

This is something that someone from VIA management should have picked up the phone and called RTC and requested that the passengers on that train be given priority to be moved to the station. I'm sure they have to shuffle things around for that to happen but it's not an impossible task.

 

[ssiguy2]

This is the part where @ssiguy2 goes quiet for a few pages and then regurgitates the same talking points again in a few weeks.

Sorry to disappoint you but.................

I get that reliability is important, what I don't get is why they are electrifying the line and how in hell it's going to cost $12 billion. If VIA is not really concerned about increasing the speed then yes they will have to straighten out some of the tighter curves but the line is already there from Peterborough to Ottawa so just bribe the CP and Bob's your uncle. There are no major stations that have to built and they are already getting new locos so that won't be an expense either.

As far as electrification is concerned, yes that will be expensive {although no where near $12 billion} but then that begs the question, why bother? The only reason to electrify a line is to increase it's speed. Yes, there are environmental benefits but they won't be much of a difference with these new Tier 4 locomotives. Electrics are quieter but this line is going thru God's country so that's a non-issue.

If all VIA only wants to do is increase reliability and frequency then fine but I fail to see, how in God's name, this will cost even remotely close to $12 billion little alone why they need extra private funding to pull it off and take a decade to build. It seems to me that Ottawa spending gobs of money and yet is getting shockingly little return on their investment.

 

[Bordercollie]

Sorry to disappoint you but.................

I get that reliability is important, what I don't get is why they are electrifying the line and how in hell it's going to cost $12 billion. If VIA is not really concerned about increasing the speed then yes they will have to straighten out some of the tighter curves but the line is already there from Peterborough to Ottawa so just bribe the CP and Bob's your uncle. There are no major stations that have to built and they are already getting new locos so that won't be an expense either.

As far as electrification is concerned, yes that will be expensive {although no where near $12 billion} but then that begs the question, why bother? The only reason to electrify a line is to increase it's speed. Yes, there are environmental benefits but they won't be much of a difference with these new Tier 4 locomotives. Electrics are quieter but this line is going thru God's country so that's a non-issue.

If all VIA only wants to do is increase reliability and frequency then fine but I fail to see, how in God's name, this will cost even remotely close to $12 billion little alone why they need extra private funding to pull it off and take a decade to build. It seems to me that Ottawa spending gobs of money and yet is getting shockingly little return on their investment.

Well they have to build the track past Havelock and do soil samples for the entire ROW. Then the design. You also need new trainsets.

 

[kEiThZ]

Sorry to disappoint you but.................

Ah yes. I forgot the part where you go back to to a different set of talking points. In this case, whining about what VIA is doing despite the fact that VIA literally has no say in HFR anymore and a whole new subsidiary has been created for this project:

Minister of Transport announces the establishment of the VIA Rail subsidiary to support High Frequency Rail and appoints three founding members to its Board of Directors

High Frequency Rail will transform passenger rail service in Canada through the creation of a faster, more frequent, accessible, and sustainable rail service among the major centres of Québec City, Trois-Rivières, Montréal, Ottawa, Peterborough, and Toronto.

www.canada.ca

VIA's loss of control contributed to the resignation of VIA's CEO earlier this year.

VIA Rail Board of Directors recognizes the work of Cynthia Garneau

/CNW Telbec/ - Following the announcement by the Minister of Transport, the Honourable Omar Alghabra, of the resignation of VIA Rail Canada's (VIA Rail)...

www.newswire.ca

As far as electrification is concerned, yes that will be expensive {although no where near $12 billion} but then that begs the question, why bother? The only reason to electrify a line is to increase it's speed. Yes, there are environmental benefits but they won't be much of a difference with these new Tier 4 locomotives. Electrics are quieter but this line is going thru God's country so that's a non-issue.

First off all the emissions reduction over 25-40 years of operation isn't a negligible matter given what portion of total VIA operations these trains make up.

Next, electrification isn't done for speed. Otherwise, there would be no point with electrified suburban trains and subways. It's done to save on operating costs. Especially fuel costs. Electrification was originally pegged at $2B. Even if the estimate is doubled, given the traffic levels being discussed, payback for electrification is easily inside the life of the rolling stock.

If all VIA only wants to do is increase reliability and frequency then fine but I fail to see, how in God's name, this will cost even remotely close to $12 billion little alone why they need extra private funding to pull it off and take a decade to build.

Because it's pretty clear that ambitions have moved beyond just frequency and reliability?

 

[DSC]

Travel Advisory: Due to the ongoing impact of the CN train derailment which occurred on December 24 and led to train cancellations between Toronto and Ottawa and Toronto and Montreal on December 24 and 25, VIA Rail is forced to cancel again all trains which were scheduled on these routes on December 26. This includes trains 41, 51, 45, 53, 47, 645, 55, 59, 50, 52, 40, 42, 44, 46, 54, 48, 51, 61, 63, 65, 67, 69, 669, 60, 62, 64, 66, 68, 668.

Update on service disruptions due to CN derailment:

CN just provided confirmation that the tracks where its train derailed on December 24 will be reopened by tomorrow. VIA Rail plans to run all trains between Toronto - Ottawa and Toronto- Montreal on December 27 with a modified schedule which will be available on our website and communicated to impacted customers as soon as possible.

 

[reaperexpress]

Video of the scene:

This is a report: from former a former CBC reporter, given by phone to CBC, that was from similarly delayed train, but provides some insights into things.

'Unacceptable': Via Rail cancels all major Christmas Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal routes after storm strands passengers, derails trains

Via Rail is cancelling all Christmas routes to and from Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal after hundreds of people were stranded in the wake of winter weather.

ca.style.yahoo.com

You can clearly see first responders accessing the site from a nearby cul-de-sac. This doesn't look particularly challenging to access, though I will concede I wasn't there.

****

The Minister is clearly not impressed (from the above link)

View attachment 447305

***

Also of note, the train on which former reporter Kelly Crowe was situated was now on its 3rd train crew; who apparently were supposed to be brought in from Kingston, but no taxi would take them; so they had to drive out to Cobourg in their own vehicles........

Eesh.

For reference, I just checked on Google Maps and the nearest station (Cobourg) was 1.8 km to the east of the train. The nearest road connection (Daintry Cr.) was 135 metres to the northwest. The nearest restaurant (Wing House) was 100 metres to the east. The CN derailment was roughly 14 km to the east, in Grafton.

Comments on other articles indicate that Cobourg Station - along with most of Cobourg - had no electricity at the time.

 

[Northern Light]

Just to give people a map-based sense of things, I know @crs1026 posted a shot, with a good descriptor above. But I just wanted to draw the line on that showing the distance as indicated by @reaperexpress

Using that same point along the track, I've drawn a line back to the VIA Station in Cobourg as well:

Aside: @reaperexpress, can you shoot me a PM?

 

[Bordercollie]

Just to give people a map-based sense of things, I know @crs1026 posted a shot, with a good descriptor above. But I just wanted to draw the line on that showing the distance as indicated by @reaperexpress

View attachment 447313

Using that same point along the track, I've drawn a line back to the VIA Station in Cobourg as well:

View attachment 447314


Aside: @reaperexpress, can you shoot me a PM?

Took them 18 hours to move the train less than 2km?

 

[reaperexpress]

Took them 18 hours to move the train less than 2km?

The train was damaged (missing horn, unknown structural condition, etc) so it was not safe to move with passengers on board. So the first order of business was somehow getting the passengers off the train (e.g. onto another train).

 

[Bordercollie]

The train was damaged (missing horn, unknown structural condition, etc) so it was not safe to move with passengers on board. So the first order of business was somehow getting the passengers off the train (e.g. onto another train).

Right so how did they eventually move the train?