Admiral Beez
Superstar
Why is GO being asked to run from Buffalo, NY? Surely this is a VIA/Amtrak route?
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
IRT_BMT_IND
Active Member
I think that Chatham Coach used to offer this service, I have no idea when it was cancelled, though I'm guessing it was gone by the 1990s.
crs1026
Superstar
Because GO is seen (from afar) as expansion friendly, whereas there isn't a hope in hell of Amtrak or VIA boosting service on that route.
The proponent (Niagara Falls NY mayor) hasn't done any deep analysis, but is a good strategist. Niagara Falls invested in a new rail station in the belief that it would be good economic development. Now the mayor is turning over rocks looking for ways to build that rail traffic. There's no down side to asking. It helps if you don't let the specific facts of what GO has done get in the way (a train leaving Niagara Falls NY at zero-dark-hundred isn't going to help them any, but with further GO expansion, it might).
And, while there are logistical/institutional barriers, it's a dirt cheap idea. The added route distance is a mere 2,300 feet, and the track is in place. They already have the customs facilities roughed into their station. Sometimes our "can't be done" attitude gets in the way.
Extension to Buffalo is a bit more effort, but not impossible.
And yeah, it's a Regional service not a commuter service, but a rose by any other name can be a GO train.
- Paul
Bureaucromancer
Active Member
This is the important thing to me. So long as Metrolinx doesn't get stuck with the customs bill it makes complete sense to extend over the river.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
as long as New York State pays for it 100%, sure. The province sure as hell isn't going to be subsidizing something running into another country. This isn't a subway into Vaughan.
littlewill1166
Active Member
I'm starting to think that people forgot what happened to the Rochester ferry.
crs1026
Superstar
Would I ride a train (not necessarily a GO double decker) to Buffalo to watch the Buffalo Bisons play? Damn right. Cheaper than a game at Skydome, even with the train ticket. The tracks run right by the stadium. Same players half the time, the way the Jays use their farm team.
Customs a problem? I have a Nexus card. Takes 15 seconds to clear customs when I ride the Windsor Transit bus through the Detroit tunnel to watch the Tigers. For that matter, Wifi in the station area, a handheld scanner for the customs agent, they can walk through the train (although they would likely make everyone get off).
A logical extension of weekend service to Niagara Falls. Nobody likes sitting in the lineup at the Peace Bridge, creeping up to the customs booth.
- Paul
Customs a problem? I have a Nexus card. Takes 15 seconds to clear customs when I ride the Windsor Transit bus through the Detroit tunnel to watch the Tigers. For that matter, Wifi in the station area, a handheld scanner for the customs agent, they can walk through the train (although they would likely make everyone get off).
A logical extension of weekend service to Niagara Falls. Nobody likes sitting in the lineup at the Peace Bridge, creeping up to the customs booth.
- Paul
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Assuming that GO Transit is a provincially-regulated railroad, this proposal is a non-starter...
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
lenaitch
Senior Member
This was mused about a few years ago after a couple of back-to-back closures of the CN line in northern Ontario due to major derailments. CP seems to have shown little interest in the past and I don't know if there is reason to believe their position has changed. If the Canadian did shift to CP, they might have to replicate a version of The Superior to serve then-isolated communities on the CN, although I'm admittedly not familiar with the details of VIA's 'remote service mandate'.
The use of GO Barrie is intriguing but I doubt proposed AD2W service would accommodate it. Also, much money would have to be spent upgrading the BCR to Utopia including a w/b to n/b connector track, and I'm not convinced there is space there.
Having said all of that, I would ride to Thunder Bay just for the experience.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
How do people traveling by train cross the border now, customs wise? Does a train stop in Buffalo before/after it crosses the border to inspect everyone’s paperwork? Wouldn’t a GoTrain be held up if someone didn’t have their docs? This seems like it would end like the Rodchester ferry again, a novel idea without doing the homework on implementation.
bbdfollower
New Member
Ever since I saw the scenery along the north shore of Superior on Brave Dave’s YouTube channel I’ve dreamt of doing that train ride.. would def do it up to TB
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Indeed, a simple phone call with the desired railroad operator might have revealed such nitpicking details such as that only federally regulated railroads may operate across provincial or even international borders. As for the border inspections, I don't see how any remotely reliable cross-border commuting service could be operated across Canada's only international border. I remember that at the French-Spanish border, regional (and other national trains) terminate at the first station after the border (Cerbere and Hendaye in France, Port-Bou and Irun in Spain), which used to have the advantage (in pre-Schengen times) that passengers with travel document issues would not delay all other travellers (or the train, which would return empty across the border, while the "difficult cases" are escorted to the border office)...
I believe it is reasonable to assume that a service would be required to operate which is comparable to what VIA operated between November 1981 and January 1990, when the Super Continental was jointly operated with the Canadian between Sudbury and Winnipeg:
Source: official VIA Rail timetable (effective 1989-04-30, p.48)
So, what objections could Transport Canada have against swapping the Canadian onto CP and the "remote service" onto CN? Well, from VIA's Annual Reports and Timetables we can approximate the operating costs per train-km, which yields a range between $24 (Sudbury-White River) and $40 (Winnipeg-Churchill). Unfortunately, Winnipeg-Churchill is the most representative service for what Capreol-Winnipeg might require and extrapolating the $39.67 over 1499 km distance gives you an operating cost of $12.4 million, representing an increase of $8.8 million over the current Sudbury-White River service even when only assuming 2 frequencies year-round:
Compiled from: VIA Rail Annual Reports 2016 and 2017, as well as official VIA Rail timetables.
Note: 2016 chosen as reference year for “Winnipeg-Churchill”, given the partial closure between May 2017 and December 2018.
Despite all the conspiracy theorists, there might have been very rational reasons to choose the CN line over the CP line. That said, I met quite a few travellers on board my (so far unfortunately only) trip on the Canadian, which said that a rerouting to its old route along Lake Superior would certainly compel them to do a second "once-in-a-lifetime" trip on board the Canadian...
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crs1026
Superstar
In the case of the Maple Leaf, that’s exactly what happens - the train stops, CBP people board, and walk the length of the train checking each traveller and their luggage. Plus sniffer dogs, etc. Train doesnt move til they are done. At Vancouver, the processing happens in the station before people board the train. That doesn’t mean there can’t be improvements.
The border process is thorough but that doesn’t mean it isn’t efficient when it wants to be. Clearing a busload of travellers has been smooth any time I have taken that mode across the border. Maybe baseball fans get special treatment.
- Paul
jamincan
Active Member
Aren't there jurisdictions where the customs officers get on at the stop before the border crossing do the clearing in transit, and then get off at the first stop across the border?