kEiThZ
Superstar
Really hoping there's an announcement for HFR in this year's budget. But I am going to guess next year is more likely.....
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
MisterF
Senior Member
So Virgin/Brightline runs on different tracks from Amtrak, correct? Is it significantly faster or more frequent? Does it compete with Amtrak or are the two planned in coordination with each other?
It seems at a glance that south Florida now has two competing rail services that run basically right next to each other and serve the same cities.
It seems at a glance that south Florida now has two competing rail services that run basically right next to each other and serve the same cities.
robmausser
Senior Member
Brightline runs faster, more frequently and the stations are actually downtown vs in the middle of nowhere. Its also cheaper, for base fare.
robmausser
Senior Member
Then the people in favour of HFR need to start forming their arguments now, in laymens terms, how they arent the same thing:
1. Brightline isnt as fast currently
2. Its not complete and doesnt run to destinations with even close to the same population.
3. It runs through downtown areas with many at-grade crossings.
4. Its privately run
Etc etc etc
crs1026
Superstar
^I'm not so sure Brightline is that similar. Sure, same trains, same idea of conventional vs HSR level technology, and somewhat similar distances. But completely different in the market they are attracting. VIA has proven success and brand presence, in the market HFR is pointed towards... to the tune of several million passengers per year. They are dealing with a market base that is different demographically and has a very different orientation towards public transit and passenger rail. (Yes, there are still plenty of autocentric folks in Ontario/Quebec, but I would hypothesise that a much greater % of our population has actually taken VIA for work or pleasure, or even just dropped a family member at a train station. VIA is already accepted as a transportation "fixture" in Ontario/Quebec.... with a very different brand reputation than Amtrak). And, the first/last mile connectability in Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal far exceeds what's available along the Brightline route. Brightline would kill to have the public reputation that VIA already has!
I follow Brightline social media and I am puzzled by their branding....all their ads show young, attractive, hip, white people.... the portrayal of women in their social media artwork borders on cheesecake. Okay, it's warmer in Florida, so they dress differently.... but I wonder about their targeting. Either they have a clear intent to focus on a particular segment of Floridians....or they are not engaging a whole lot of people. I can't figure out if it's very clever or not clever at all.
- Paul
I follow Brightline social media and I am puzzled by their branding....all their ads show young, attractive, hip, white people.... the portrayal of women in their social media artwork borders on cheesecake. Okay, it's warmer in Florida, so they dress differently.... but I wonder about their targeting. Either they have a clear intent to focus on a particular segment of Floridians....or they are not engaging a whole lot of people. I can't figure out if it's very clever or not clever at all.
- Paul
robmausser
Senior Member
If ridership is at 50% of target I bet I can wager which one it is.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Virgin runs on the Florida East Coast Railway, which is different from Amtrak's route. That said, Brightline is a regional service and Amtrak's is skewed to NY/DC-Florida-NY/DC travel.
MisterF
Senior Member
Interesting. While the part that's currently open serves the same cities as Amtrak, I can see future phases along the coast carving out more of a niche for Virgin since it will serve a long string of cities bypassed by Amtrak.
I think a big counterpoint to Virgin being used as a criticism of Via HFR is that HFR is intended to complement existing service and is proposed by the same agency, with existing and proposed lines forming a coordinated system. Virgin, OTOH, is private and competes with Amtrak. Plus the fact that Via is embedded in the culture and has proven and growing demand, and Ontario and Quebec are much more oriented to rail and public transit in general than Florida will ever be.
dowlingm
Senior Member
The other thing to keep in mind about Brightline is that it is partially a real estate play.
mickael
Active Member
Every smart rail company is.
cplchanb
Senior Member
Via should get into the hotel business as well. If they partner with Hilton or fairmount or create their own chain, they can gain much revenue from it. An example is JR. they have an entire chain of profitable hotels by their rail stations
kEiThZ
Superstar
1) This is beyond VIA's mandate and the lobbying from competitors would probably kill VIA's rail plans too.
2) Most VIA stations already have hotels nearby. There's a reason the Royal York is across from Union Station, and the Queen Elizabeth is across from Gare Centrale in Montreal. They were formerly CN Hotel properties, then CP Hotels and Fairmont after CP Hotels merged into that company. Delta Hotels is the other successor of CP Hotels. This is why there's a Fairmont or Delta near virtually every existing or old train station in the country.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Apart from mandate issues, how many VIA stations do they actually own in places where they could overcome planning issues as well as make some serious cash because of metro size and station location? Ottawa (post-LRT) maybe?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yep. People act as though it's easy. But most big city VIA stations have old CN/CP Hotels across the street. Or they are in small towns where a hotel at the train station isn't going to the revenue generator people think it is. Even Ottawa's station, while convenient to downtown, would be a very crappy spot for a hotel. And has a large Marriott down the street.
jje1000
Senior Member
Agreed- on an aside, most North American rail lines and privately-owned transit companies were historically also real estate plays as well- probably in part due to the need to actually create ridership and business from scratch.