[Richard White]

I agree with breaking it up to east and west branches. Perhaps they can throw in a couple full segment trips per week but it will greatly help keep trains on time and lower cost if it wasnt a a single long route.
That way they can also increase frequency and decrease train size to cater for the region.

If you break it up into smaller segments it would be a death knell for the train. Those who take the train take it for the same reasons they take The Ocean or the Rocky Mountaineer. It is a land cruise, not a commuter service.

Those who take it, know it is a long trip but take it for the experience. If they wanted a faster travel time they would fly for a fraction of the cost.

 

[sacred]

they can have perhaps a single train like per week or biweekly. it makes no sense to do this for every train. it would cost way too much for return and not to mention the potential delays would be to risky long term. Given that Tor to Van is already exprecting 24 delay avg, youre looking at possibly 48hr delay from coast to coast, which honestly would be unacceptable to any rider.

Agreed! The end-to-end Canadian is not useful enough as a transportation tool to the areas it travels by. Do I want to take the Canadian? Yes, as a luxury/cruise experience when I have the time and money. Do I want my fellow Canadians to be able to access a more frequent, reliable service, and accessible service? Especially yes. Western Canada needs great transportation that serves their needs.

 

[cplchanb]

If you break it up into smaller segments it would be a death knell for the train. Those who take the train take it for the same reasons they take The Ocean or the Rocky Mountaineer. It is a land cruise, not a commuter service.

Those who take it, know it is a long trip but take it for the experience. If they wanted a faster travel time they would fly for a fraction of the cost.

you do know that many small communities rely on it as their only viable means of transporation. They need to preserve the service for those people and most likely themajority dont need to go more than 1 provice across to do their business. They need to
have reliable eervice for those people and imo smaller more frequent regional trains are the answer. You can still have the Canadian running once every week or biweekly, but until theres reliable cheaper service it makes no sense to continue breaking the bank for a train that is often 24 hrs late and cost prohibitive to most except for retired folk

 

[trebello]

Those are good points. Perhaps I should have added an additional option of having one weekly Canadian trip all the way from Toronto to Vancouver, with additional trips on segments where there is more demand (perhaps even near daily on some sections, such as through the Rockies during the summer months). This could not only make it more practical (and reliable) for inter-city travel, but would also give tourists the opportunity to get off in a city like Jasper and not be forced to stay for longer than they want to catch the next train.

 

[Urban Sky]

they can have perhaps a single train like per week or biweekly. it makes no sense to do this for every train. it would cost way too much for return and not to mention the potential delays would be to risky long term. Given that Tor to Van is already exprecting 24hr delay avg, youre looking at possibly 48hr delay from coast to coast, which honestly would be unacceptable to any rider.

You are describing a situation which was true in previous years, but no longer reflects the reality since the schedule changes which took place in June 2018 and April 2019:

Please refer to post #6708 for sources and explanations...

Agreed! The end-to-end Canadian is not useful enough as a transportation tool to the areas it travels by. Do I want to take the Canadian? Yes, as a luxury/cruise experience when I have the time and money. Do I want my fellow Canadians to be able to access a more frequent, reliable service, and accessible service? Especially yes. Western Canada needs great transportation that serves their needs.

Couldn’t agree more, but I don’t understand why Western Canadians would favour an infrequent, slow and unreliable intercity rail service over the kind of much faster, more frequent and flexible coach (i.e. intercity bus) service which could be run for the same (or even smaller) operating subsidy...

In any case, all discussions about the creation of an intercity rail service across Western Canada or a publicly funded national coach service belong in the Transport Policy thread, as neither falls within VIA’s current mandate...

 

[trebello]

Thanks for the graphs @Urban Sky ! I couldn't agree more re: train vs coach travel ...VIA will never be competitive with bus service in speed/frequency on sections such as Vancouver to Kamloops. It seems train speed is quite good on the prairies, so if it wasn't for reliability I can see people using VIA more on Edmonton - Winnipeg (although I don't see reliability drastically changing anytime soon). Plus some sections (such as Kamloops to Jasper) don't have intercity bus service since Greyhound left. I wonder if VIA would consider doing overnight stops on the Canadian like they do with The Skeena

 

[cplchanb]

Thanks for the graphs @Urban Sky ! I couldn't agree more re: train vs coach travel ...VIA will never be competitive with bus service in speed/frequency on sections such as Vancouver to Kamloops. It seems train speed is quite good on the prairies, so if it wasn't for reliability I can see people using VIA more on Edmonton - Winnipeg (although I don't see reliability drastically changing anytime soon). Plus some sections (such as Kamloops to Jasper) don't have intercity bus service since Greyhound left. I wonder if VIA would consider doing overnight stops on the Canadian like they do with The Skeena

Tbh the new schedule sort of paints a false narrative as they are allowing for more train travel time, thus accounting for the delays into the schedule. So while it looks good for the OTP chart in reality, the trains are still much slower than bus and need a better long term solution.
Its like trying to hide dirt under the carpet. As mentioned above they need to solve the problem of travel times and delays instead of hiding it behind false metrics.

On the note of the canadian itself, if we were to have regional regular service and the single canadian trip, perhaps the latter can just stop at the major and popular stops (major cities, jasper etc). that can help with maintaining performance and being a tourist train.

 

[sacred]

Tbh the new schedule sort of paints a false narrative as they are allowing for more train travel time, thus accounting for the delays into the schedule. So while it looks good for the OTP chart in reality, the trains are still much slower than bus and need a better long term solution.
Its like trying to hide dirt under the carpet. As mentioned above they need to solve the problem of travel times and delays instead of hiding it behind false metrics.

On the note of the canadian itself, if we were to have regional regular service and the single canadian trip, perhaps the latter can just stop at the major and popular stops (major cities, jasper etc). that can help with maintaining performance and being a tourist train.

How is it a false narrative if the new schedule accounts for delays and more closely reflects service...??

 

[Urban Sky]

Tbh the new schedule sort of paints a false narrative as they are allowing for more train travel time, thus accounting for the delays into the schedule. So while it looks good for the OTP chart in reality, the trains are still much slower than bus and need a better long term solution.
Its like trying to hide dirt under the carpet. As mentioned above they need to solve the problem of travel times and delays instead of hiding it behind false metrics.

Just for the records: I only responded to your claim that 24 hours of delay are still a common occurrence without any suggestion that the OTP observed since the most recent schedule change would be adequate for anyone else than the (mostly international) rail cruise crowd.

Also, the post I linked clearly mentioned that the schedules were extended, even though the more important stabilizer was the substantial increase of turnaround time in Toronto:

 

[crs1026]

^Just about everybody I know has a revised post-COVID bucket list of travel destinations that they hope to visit when travel resumes. I have to assume that the Canadian remains a valued travel experience, not only for Canadians but for those overseas who see Canada as a travel destination.

The "K-shaped recovery" thing gives a lot of optimism that there will be customers willing to pay. While COVID is hitting many hard, there are just as many who are actually accumulating disposable income because they can't find anything to spend it on.

So - what VIA should be doing (and, by all indications they are) is taking the time to put their fleet in absolute top condition, so that they are ready to run the service to the hilt once COVID travel restrictions ease. As a tourist train, it has a very strong future. COVID is just building up demand for later.

With so many Canadian riders coming from afar, cancelling the train would affect airlines hotels, and other parts of the tourist industry. All of these are in desperate need of resuscitation as soon as travel is possible. I just can't see "Ottawa" touching the Canadian for a few years hence. The question will be whether the travel appetite eases, or remains heavy. At some point the boomers as a cohort will become too old to travel.... although VIA remains a "cruise experience" and may attract lots of repeat customers who are in their 70's and 80's. It's certainly on my bucket list (and I'm not in that category....yet). Pricing may change, but already Prestige Class is here to stay.

Personally, my travel hopes/expectations are to resume travel within Canada well before the borders reopen. The Canadian is on my list, and I gather others see it equally favourably. CN's ability to move the train reliably is certainly a make or break matter for VIA. But beyond that, the service is viable. Leave the debate for later, let's see what 3-5 years of post-covid operations delivers.

PS - the Ocean is more debatable, and with the Ren fleet in such poor shape the Canadian's fleet will be eroded to protect the Ocean. Let's start the discussion there.

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

How is it a false narrative if the new schedule accounts for delays and more closely reflects service...??

because its trying to excuse delays as part of the schedule rather than trying to fix the issue. They will never be able to gain more ridership if they ignore the root cause of the delays. If they are to compete with
intercity buses in the BC/Alberta region as mentioned earlier, the first thing they need to do is address the causes of delays instead of hiding it.

Why were they able to adhere to the old schedule 20 years ago and have it deteriorate over time?

 

[Urban Sky]

because its trying to excuse delays as part of the schedule rather than trying to fix the issue. They will never be able to gain more ridership if they ignore the root cause of the delays. If they are to compete with
intercity buses in the BC/Alberta region as mentioned earlier, the first thing they need to do is address the causes of delays instead of hiding it.

Why were they able to adhere to the old schedule 20 years ago and have it deteriorate over time?

Assuming that you acknowledge the limits of VIA’s mandate, how would you “address the causes of delays” if you were its CEO? Otherwise, I would kindly ask you to continue this discussion in the “Transportation Policy in Canada” thread...

 

[micheal_can]

With The Canadian continuing its shortened Vancouver-Winnipeg run (removing Toronto - Sudbury entirely), what do people think the post-covid future of this train is? As has been mentioned, VIA's Corporate Plan notes that the current business model is "is no longer sustainable", but it seems unlikely VIA would cancel this train outright. I say this because the optics would likely be poor for the government to cancel the best-known service in Western Canada as inter-city bus services are cancelled and as the MMIWG notes the importance of intercity transit, plus with the carbon tax increasing it doesn't look great to remove transit options (even though almost no one actually uses The Canadian for regular inter-city travel). I could be wrong on this, but it seems like something people would use to get upset about, even if they have no intention of ever stepping on a train.

Many users on here seem much more knowledgeable than me on this, so assuming VIA keeps this service, is there any possibility of:

• Permanently breaking the train into different segments (e.g. Vancouver - Edmonton, Edmonton - Winnipeg, Winnipeg - Toronto). This would likely help OTP, but could decrease international tourists going from Toronto to Vancouver in Prestige Class
• Using the CP route from Toronto to Winnipeg. Transport Canada seems to suggest this route has seen declining traffic relative to the CN route and it would serve Thunder Bay, which has been requesting the return of train service. Not sure if VIA is mandated to serve many of the smaller communities along the CN line, but they could possibly do this using the Budd Cars from the Sudbury - White River train.
• Using other tracks in some places (looking at old timetables it looks like at one point VIA ran service from Winnipeg to Saskatoon via Regina instead of Melville). This seems rather unlikely, especially given part of the tracks are now owned by a small short-line railway.
• Working out an agreement with CN to help pay some capital costs of lengthening sidings (maybe in exchange for better OTP)

...or any other possibilities?

If they substantially lowered the cost more people would use it. If nothing else the Canadian has iconic views and is truly an experience but the cost is insane. I looked at taking it years ago for the experience but I had no desire to pay over 5000 dollars each way for a proper bed as opposed to sleeping in my seat.

It should be extended to Halifax from Vancouver (with no transfer in Toronto or Quebec). Tying it in with the ocean would make it truly a national experience.

If you break it up into smaller segments it would be a death knell for the train. Those who take the train take it for the same reasons they take The Ocean or the Rocky Mountaineer. It is a land cruise, not a commuter service.

Those who take it, know it is a long trip but take it for the experience. If they wanted a faster travel time they would fly for a fraction of the cost.

There was already a Vancouver - Edmonton train before Covid shut things down. Splitting the line up makes sense. Having a thru train once a week for the land yacht crowd. Splitting it up into the chunks at Edmonton and Winnipeg would allow the service to grow. As demand for parts of it grow, it may see more service added. It can also allow for other services to be added to those terminals and potentially grow Via outside of the Corridor.

 

[trebello]

Good point @micheal_can re: the Edmonton to Vancouver segment. Summer 2019 when I had to travel from Jasper to Vancouver I purposely aimed to get the train that started in Edmonton (instead of one coming from Toronto) in hopes it wouldn't be delayed (and it wasn't). VIA seems to have done a great job at figuring out solutions available within their control to improve service. I was mostly curious if changing routing is even an option for VIA. Not wanting to get bogged down in discussion on general rail policy (which is best had in another thread), what options does VIA currently have within their control to make changes to The Canadian so it has a more "sustainable" business model? Are they limited to schedule/equipment changes or could they do something like negotiate to use CP tracks from Sudbury to Winnipeg (or White River to Winnipeg rather), if this would even help. Similarly for The Ocean (what are some options that VIA actually has control over for sustaining this train)? Having used the Canadian several times for actual transportation (in economy and sometimes between smaller destinations), I certainly hope it can continue to exist in a way that's accessible.

 

[Bordercollie]

So let's say they split the train at Edmonton, and the train from Edmonton is 24 hours late? If you are in coach where do you plan to stay? The station won't be open for 24 hours.
I mean they could partner with motels but it's kinda hard when you don't know when then customers will arrive or leave so that kinda difficult.

But they are addressing some of the bottlenecks such as double tracking through the Rockies and adding a bi-pass through walker yard to deal with trains backing up entering the yard. Sometimes it takes the train 6 hours to get from the outskirts of Edmonton, to the station.