[kEiThZ]

Hostage, no. But a million people is a lot of trips. It’s fair to ask what investment and service level a million people can justify on their own, without being win-lose to that other catchment.

Sure they are plenty of trips. But those trips aren't going away. People are pretending that we're shutting down Lakeshore. That's not in any of the documents we've seen. So really the discussion is about the marginal gain or loss arising from changes in services. And there's no way those million people can come close to the market potential of the big metros.

The fact is, there are two rail corridors along the Lakeshore. One of these can handle all the freight traffic that will ever be attainable, even on a 50-year or 100-year horizon. Allowing these two entities to spread the freight across both, in a way that impedes reasonable exploitation of passenger service, is just not rational nor good economics, and certainly not in the public interest.

If our public policy treats the independence of freight railways as sacred, the opportunity cost we are paying is huge, and much bigger than the option of putting the two into coproduction and reclaiming the second corridor for whatever passenger needs we choose to meet.

I agree to a point. But this is broader question of public policy and state interference in market making. Is it a discussion we should have? Absolutely. Is it a discussion we will have? Definitely not. And so then we do hold all further passenger rail investment in the Corridor hostage to our immaturity. I think that's probably a bad idea. This is a situation where we should not let perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[Bordercollie]

There's no point. That connection won't save enough (over departing from Kingston itself) to make it worthwhile. It's an hour to drive from Kingston to Sharbot Lake. With travel times from there, it would be a wash compared to what is there today. Also, if Kingston passengers get diverted to HxR, the business case for Lakeshore services as a whole gets seriously damaged.

Right now, travel times are;

Kingston-Toronto: 2.5 hrs
Kingston-Ottawa: 2.3 hrs
Kingston-Montreal: 2.75 hrs

Making the Kingston trains all stop milk runs might add 10-15 mins more (they already have some stops), but those are still relatively decent travel times. What's needed is better air-rail integration including the REM Extension at Dorval and extending Lakeshore service thru Union to terminate at Pearson. Being able to get to Dorval or Pearson in less than 3 hrs from Kingston or to Ottawa in closer to 2 hrs would be massively beneficial. Not just to Kingston. But for the entire Lakeshore.

It will allow people to transfer from one line to another for various reasons.

 

[kEiThZ]

It will allow people to transfer from one line to another for various reasons.

They can also transfer at Union, Tremblay or Dorval. Don't really a Sharbot Lake stop for that.

Let's say you want to travel from Kingston to Alexandria. Take the train to Ottawa and transfer there. Want to go from Belleville to Smiths Falls? Go to Kingston and transfer to the Ottawa bound train.

There's a few disadvantaged markets. Say you want to go from Kingston to Peterborough. You might face a slightly longer trip with a bus connection at Oshawa instead of a rail connection at Sharbot Lake. And even this is debatable, because you could go to Smiths Falls and transfer to HxR and then just backtrack to Peterborough. Might even be faster than a stop at Sharbot Lake. Ultimately these city pairs are just so small that it's not worthwhile adding a stop in the middle of nowhere to enable a handful of bus connections from Kingston.

When talking about HxR, I think the question people need to ponder is, "Would be build an airport to serve this demand?" That's almost the level of passenger demand this line is aiming to serve. Especially with proposals like Alstom's HSR. It you wouldn't build at airport at Sharbot Lake to serve Kingston, why would you put a higher speed rail station there?

 

[Urban Sky]

It will allow people to transfer from one line to another for various reasons.

What would taking a one-hour long trip to Sharbot Lake (where we all agree that it would never justify frequent stops) achieve, which can‘t be achieved more conveniently with the local milk-runs or semi-express trains on the Kingston Sub?

 

[Bordercollie]

What would taking a one-hour long trip to Sharbot Lake (where we all agree that it would never justify frequent stops) achieve, which can‘t be achieved more conveniently with the local milk-runs or semi-express trains on the Kingston Sub?

What is you want to go from Kingston to Peterborough? Go all the way to Toronto and then transfer to HFR and go back to Peterborough?

What if you want to go from Brockville to Peterborough? Or Belleville to Sharbot Lake?

 

[kEiThZ]

It's 1 hr to drive to Sharbot Lake. It's 1 h 09 mins to take VIA from Kingston to Smiths Falls today. Nothing says that can't be improved.

What is the point of building a Sharbot Lake station? People from Kingston can travel to Smiths Falls. They can transfer to HxR there and be in Peterborough in 1 hr or Toronto in 2 hrs. Or they stay on the train and reach Ottawa in another 30-40 mins.

I fell for the Sharbot Lake idea in the past. But the more I look at it, the more pointless it appears.

 

[kEiThZ]

What is you want to go from Kingston to Peterborough? Go all the way to Toronto and then transfer to HFR and go back to Peterborough?

What if you want to go from Brockville to Peterborough? Or Belleville to Sharbot Lake?

Go to Smith Falls and then take the HxR to Peterborough. With no stop this stretch will be designed for 200-300 kph. That's a 40-60 min ride from Smiths Falls at worst. With the transfer this would be only slightly slower (20-30 mins worse) than the 2 hr car ride between Kingston and Peterborough today. Having a stop at Sharbot Lake instead, would save these passengers 20-30 mins, at substantial capital cost to the project, and delays to all the passengers en route.

For Belleville to Sharbot Lake? Drive. It's what people do today. It's not a big enough market to justify rail investment.

 

[DirectionNorth]

What is you want to go from Kingston to Peterborough? Go all the way to Toronto and then transfer to HFR and go back to Peterborough?

What if you want to go from Brockville to Peterborough? Or Belleville to Sharbot Lake?

These are fringe use cases, not really worth the time and effort to service them with public transit. Buy a car or make a transfer.

There might be a million people on the Lakeshore corridor, but those stops slow down TOM trips. The schedule isn't designed for Lakeshore trips either, so rerouting express trips onto another corridor will free those trains to run schedules tailored for Lakeshore communities. Maybe an HFR/HSR on Lakeshore would be better (I'm not sure about this though) but as always, the cost/benefit needs to be looked at and I'm not sure how justified that investment would be.

The perpetual danger is that budget cuts will eliminate Lakeshore service. We just have to be on the lookout for that, I guess.

 

[lenaitch]

I've never felt there was a business case for a HxR stop in Sharbot Lake. People in the area all all in favour since they assume there would be one, but it's 1400 people for cripes sake. It's about an hour to Kingston (a fairly hard hour the last time I drove it), but 30 minutes to Perth and 45 to Smiths Falls.

 

[Urban Sky]

I've never felt there was a business case for a HxR stop in Sharbot Lake. People in the area all all in favour since they assume there would be one, but it's 1400 people for cripes sake. It's about an hour to Kingston (a fairly hard hour the last time I drove it), but 30 minutes to Perth and 45 to Smiths Falls.

The main trip generator would be tourists in summer, not trips by local residents, let alone: by people driving up from Kingston…

 

[lenaitch]

The main trip generator would be tourists in summer, not trips by local residents, let alone: by people driving up from Kingston…

Perhaps, but I'm not exactly sure that would generate much because of the 'last mile' problem (actually last many miles). There's nothing magical about Sharbot Lake over any other cottage country community. It's no more of a hub than Tweed, Kaladar or Perth. Unless you own or rent a true, turn-key second home, people heading to a cottage or camping lug along a lot of stuff, so the 'last mile' becomes more problematic. Yes, I suppose it could be the beginnings of a local taxi industry or become the hub of a fleet of AVs waiting at the train station, I just hope they are willing to carry lumber and groceries.

 

[evandyk]

I don't know anything about this Sharbot Lake place. We've gone to a few resort-type places in Muskoka that it would have been more convenient to take a train to rather than drive. But I don't really see the point of a train to the middle of nowhere until we've built trains to all the places with people.

Countries like Japan and Switzerland have trains to every small town and I'd love to be like them, but we're a long way from that.

 

[Urban Sky]

I don't know anything about this Sharbot Lake place. We've gone to a few resort-type places in Muskoka that it would have been more convenient to take a train to rather than drive. But I don't really see the point of a train to the middle of nowhere until we've built trains to all the places with people.

Countries like Japan and Switzerland have trains to every small town and I'd love to be like them, but we're a long way from that.

The only reason anyone would ever build a station at Sharbot Lake is if you build a rail line which by a lucky coincidence happens to pass by Sharbot Lake. Three stops a day (morning - midday - evening) would be more than enough to serve whatever tourism market there might be at that place…

 

[lenaitch]

I don't know anything about this Sharbot Lake place. We've gone to a few resort-type places in Muskoka that it would have been more convenient to take a train to rather than drive. But I don't really see the point of a train to the middle of nowhere until we've built trains to all the places with people.

Countries like Japan and Switzerland have trains to every small town and I'd love to be like them, but we're a long way from that.

All-inclusive or all service resorts are different than personal cottages and camping. They can also justify transportation shuttles. There are a few in the the general area but are more common in Muskoka, particularly higher-end ones.

The missus used to live in Sharbot Lake and we still visit. If we had anywhere near the population density of those countries I would agree.

 

[nfitz]

There's no point. That connection won't save enough (over departing from Kingston itself) to make it worthwhile. It's an hour to drive from Kingston to Sharbot Lake. With travel times from there, it would be a wash compared to what is there today. Also, if Kingston passengers get diverted to HxR, the business case for Lakeshore services as a whole gets seriously damaged.

Right now, travel times are;

Kingston-Toronto: 2.5 hrs
Kingston-Ottawa: 2.3 hrs
Kingston-Montreal: 2.75 hrs

Making the Kingston trains all stop milk runs might add 10-15 mins more (they already have some stops), but those are still relatively decent travel times.

Back in the 1990s, VIA had an express train from Toronto to Kingston that was exactly 2 hours, including a stop in Guildwood. I'm not sure they ever had a Montreal-Kingston express. A couple of Ottawa trains had a second stop in Port Hope or Cobourg and used to Toronto to Kingston in 123 to 125 minutes. Even the evening Kingston milk run from Toronto, that they still haven't restored after Covid only took 2.5 hours with all 7 stops between Union and Kingston. Heck, before Covid it used to 4 in-between stops and still did it in 2 hours 21.

And back in the 90s most of the Ottawa to Toronto trains took just under or just over 4 hours.

Feels like we are going backwards.

I have looked at the pre-Covid versus post-Covid schedules. Is it really that much slower than it was back in 2019?