nfitz
Superstar
It not so much pointed a finger, but threw up a couple of strawmen - without attaching any blame.
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- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
Or - the tracks should be fixed so that the fastest passenger route is the one that avoids conflict with CN freight.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
True, but that may prove to be equally true of people on the Peterborough line when HxR gets to the serious stage.
In terms of the effort to achieve a passenger quality infrastructure, the two are pretty similar in distance and in the amount of engineering and construction effort and cost. Owen Sound may have less population and therefore less of a business case, and yes there will be some land (reacquisition) required, but the overall envelope is likely within the same order of magnitude. Peterborough however falls well below the business potential of Niagara or KW-London, but is just as pricey to achieve, so until HxR comes along it's not as justifiable as a priority..
- Paul
MisterF
Senior Member
Re-establishing rail to Collingwood would be similar, I'll grant you that. But Owen Sound is a different story. The rail line has been gone for decades and there are several gaps in the right of way, including the entire distance between Meaford and Owen Sound and through the hearts of both towns plus Thornbury and Collingwood. There's no easy way to bridge those gaps. Building on a new ROW would be expensive and controversial given the limited benefit, and expropriating the old ROW would mean demolishing whatever's been built on it and a huge public outcry.
The CP line to Peterborough has none of these problems. Rebuilding and upgrading it is much simpler. That's why Via Rail chose it for HFR.
Again, I didn't say it was.
lenaitch
Senior Member
There never was rail from Meaford to Owen Sound. Owen Sound was served by CP north from the Orangeville area as well as CN north from Palmerston (Teeswater?)
nfitz
Superstar
That seems correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Railway_of_Canada#Northern Railway says "Construction between Collingwood and Meaford took place over the flat terrain between the Niagara Escarpment and the southern shore of Georgian Bay, and the line was completed on 1 April 1872. However, the expansion to Owen Sound was never completed ..."
MisterF
Senior Member
Interesting. If anything that makes a hypothetical line to Owen Sound even harder than I thought!
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Why doesn’t Thunder Bay have VIA service? With so many government and resource jobs in that city I’d think a passenger rail connection to the south would be viable. Especially now that there’s limited to no bus coach service.
lenaitch
Senior Member
They used to until Via Canadian switched to the CN route. True that government jobs might have a need to connect to Toronto (there really aren't that many resource-based jobs there), I'm not sure a lengthy train ride would win out over a two hour flight. The route around Superior is much more scenic though.
You'd be surprised how little people in the northwest interact, follow or even care about the south.
crs1026
Superstar
Flightaware tells me that yesterday (Friday) Thunder Bay airport saw 7 commercial flights to Pearson, 6 to Billy Bishop, 5 to Winnipeg, 2 to Ottawa, and 1 to Calgary.
Plus umpteen connector flights to all the small places up that way - Dryden, Fort Frances, Geraldton, Sioux Lookout, ˚enora, etc etc.
That's a lot of seats filled.
The CP line directly parallels the Trans Canada in both directions out of town. I suppose one could argue that some of those passengers would prefer the train if it were reliable, comfortable, and speedy.... but if a bus can't compete on the Trans Canada, then a train can't either. The reality is - most people would rather fly.
- Paul
Northern Light
Superstar
I think there is demand, if its correctly understood.
The idea that T-Bay Toronto is the primary market I think is questionable, though the flight traffic shows there's a market there, to be sure, that is an extremely long haul by land transportation.
I would tend to think of it more like extended commuter rail, that Thunder Bay is the hub of so much in its area. Many need to go there for Health Care, but there's also all the university students at Lakehead, and many other like services both for those who may commute daily, but also for those who simply want to come home on weekends, or for holidays.
Of course, the argument goes, virtually all, certainly 99.5% of all persons using T-Bay as a hub will have a car, if not two in their household as that's pretty much necessary.
But in many cases, like with University Students, or someone down for an operation, there many be a compelling reason that you would either prefer to take the train in, or would require a drive from someone else.
I think returning the Canadian to what is the more scenic route gives a useful connection to Toronto or Winnipeg 2 - 3x per week. But what's more needed is a 2x daily service over a shorter distance.
White River or Marathon to TB from the south; Atikoken to T-Bay from the North-west.
But clearly you don't want a large crew and a 5 car plus train making that run; a train that can operate with a crew of 2, + 1 cabin staff if the demand is there for added service options, and run a short 3-car operation.
I don't know what current track speeds are, and how much passing track would be needed to keep CP happy and a traIn reliable, but over shorter distances the upgrades should be a more reasonable cost (or so I would imagine)
roger1818
Senior Member
The question becomes at what cost? The upgrades will happen when the cost to upgrade and maintain the track can be amortized over the frequent service along the TOM corridor. However, with only 2 local trains a day, the per train cost to keep the track to a standard that would be even remotely competitive with a bus would be high.
By example, the track that VIA owns and maintains to a reasonable standard had (pre COVID) at least 4 trains a day, thus at least double the number of trains to amortize the costs over. One only has to look at the condition of CN’s Guelph Sub. west of Kitchener to get an idea of what the best case scenario might look like for local only service to Peterborough. Even then, there is more freight traffic to help amortize track maintenance costs on the Guelph Sub.
Then there is the question of equipment. VIA is struggling to restore pre COVID service with their corridor fleet reaching its end of life. The new fleet can’t come soon enough.
The first step should be to have either GO or Ontario Northland (or both) provide several buses a day and monitor demand to see if the costs of a train can be justified. Then again, this may all become moot if HFR becomes reality.
Northern Light
Superstar
The entire CP ROW to Owen Sound, from Orangeville in tact as a rail trail.
Here's the giant arc where it turns into town:
The old CN ROW is largely there too, also as a rail trail: (north section); but I traced the still visible ROW all the way down to Hanover, I could 4 minor buildings in the settlements of Tara, and Elmwood, otherwise its in tact at least that far.
@lenaitch
CN went west to Park Head, then south as per the maps above.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
In France they’ve canceled all flights where a train can go. Maybe that’s something Ontario should follow.
crs1026
Superstar
@MisterF seems to have lost sight of why I brought this line up in the first place.
My point was not to suggest that restoring a line to Owen Sound would be practical, or desirable.
My point was to point out that the Peterborough line is so decrepit that it barely exists - and therefore the cost of its restoration approaches the same magnitude as other hypothetical rebuilds.
The Peterborough rebuild makes eminent sense in terms of an addition to an intercity line linking T-O-M that could carry millions of passengers per year and greatly impact the cost of roadbuilding and airport upgrades between these metro cities. Serving local passengers at Peterborough is gravy to that plan, which is sustainable even if the trains all zoomed through Peterborough without stopping.
GO trains to Peterborough are an affordable and scalable extension to the T-O-M plan - however one would have difficulty justifying the cost of the rebuild considering only GO ridership on a standalone basis.
There are, in fact, 11-12 GO buses a day in each direction between Peterborough and Oshawa GO, 7 days a week.
- Paul