[AlvinofDiaspar]

spider:

I am pretty sure that there is not a single person on this thread sufficiently informed to know the "true cost" of everything they will buy today.

No, but as a consumer, shouldn't we have the right to be informed? I am paying my hard earned dollars, surely I have the right to know.

That information is available at the cash register, it is arrived at by the retailer who knows his or her cost and decides the level of mark up needed to keep the doors open and provide a living for him and his family. Given that there is more than one independent retailer there will likely be more than one mark up evaluation and subsequently retail price.

That's a rather romantic view of mom-and-pop retail, not transnational, industrial-scaled retailing.

AoD

 

[LowPolygon]

That information is available at the cash register, it is arrived at by the retailer who knows his or her cost and decides the level of mark up needed to keep the doors open and provide a living for him and his family....

yeah, that "lil' olde shopkeeper" Mr. WalMart really has it all figured out.

Walmart CEO's Pay Jumps 14.1 Percent To $20.7 Million

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/walmart-ceo-pay-2012_n_3134515.html

 

[ttk77]

ttk:

Wanting to lower costs in itself isn't a bad thing - it can drive innovation. Where it becomes a potential issue is when costs are lowered not because of advances in manufacturing or technology - but through shifting of production to jurisdictions with lower costs and in particular lower standards - in effect potentially exporting the problems associated with our consumption to places willing to accept it. That can of course be beneficial sometimes (as a route to economic development) but often it isn't.

AoD

Sure. I'm not saying that lowering prices/costs is always a bad thing, just that we need examine things carefully when we introduce new technologies and business practices to make sure that we're aware of and ok with the possible long term consequences for our society. I don't believe that Walmart's business model is sustainable in the long term.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

(that's not to say the Kensington proposal is acceptable - but it wouldn't have been regardless of the brand of retailer).

AoD -- w/o my having to page back through this tiresome back & forth non-argument, why is the Kensington proposal unacceptable, regardless of retailer? It's my impression that it is a reasonable build out expansion of the defunct Kromer Radio (sp?) space, which has been derelict for years. Do you consider too big?

Also -- this is no more in Kensington Market than my old house. It's on Bathurst by the hospital.

 

[picard102]

AoD -- w/o my having to page back through this tiresome back & forth non-argument, why is the Kensington proposal unacceptable, regardless of retailer? It's my impression that it is a reasonable build out expansion of the defunct Kromer Radio (sp?) space, which has been derelict for years. Do you consider too big?

It's dreadfully banal for one. I'd like to see them come up with some other aesthetic personally, with something that breaks up the frontage a bit more so it's less mall-esq.

 

[the lemur]

AoD -- w/o my having to page back through this tiresome back & forth non-argument, why is the Kensington proposal unacceptable, regardless of retailer? It's my impression that it is a reasonable build out expansion of the defunct Kromer Radio (sp?) space, which has been derelict for years. Do you consider too big?

Also -- this is no more in Kensington Market than my old house. It's on Bathurst by the hospital.

I agree on the question of it not being in Kensington - Bathurst is the western boundary of that neighbourhood AFAIC - and there's not much there that would be in direct competition (unless the proposed Wal-Mart starts offering Starbucks coffee, Vietnamese food or funerals). The 'market' part of KM ends a block or two east of there.

I also don't have much objection to Wal-Mart per se, although there's not much I'd buy there regularly.

However, the difference between Wal-Mart and the old previous Kromer Radio outlet is that Kromer was not the sort of place that attracted regular, recurring traffic. People don't shop for stereos that often. Something that offers a wide range of basic necessities that people shop for frequently, regularly, seasonally (essentially food, clothing, household items) is going to attract a lot more traffic of all types, and I don't think Bathurst/Nassau can handle that. That intersection only got its traffic light a few years ago.

 

[greenleaf]

yeah, that "lil' olde shopkeeper" Mr. WalMart really has it all figured out.

Walmart CEO's Pay Jumps 14.1 Percent To $20.7 Million

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/walmart-ceo-pay-2012_n_3134515.html

And to add a bit of politics to it, the Walton family has consistently supported conservative views and politicians in the US. So if you are purchasing there, you are indirectly supporting this. If that's your thing, fine; but it's not mine and that's why I don't shop there (along with their labor practices).

 

[TrickyRicky]

P.S. Most small business and property owners including likely most such individuals in Kensington market also support conservative views on many issues. Anyway I'm neutral on the Walmart issue but I'm interested and concerned about the built form of the development.

People need to face the facts: what is built at this site will almost certainly be some kind of large format corporate chain store and Kensington market will be an upscale retail and entertainment neighbhourhood. These are inevitable outcomes.

If it is a Walmart I admit that as a resident of the Old city of Toronto West end I would have no reason to go to this Walmart for anything I presently would go to Kensington market for. Furthermore, the existing stores in Kensington that sell stuff that also can be bought in Walmart are generally not great retail experiences and not particularly cheap either. Additionally, despite the hype the selection of goods at Walmart isn't very good. I sometimes go to Walmart to buy something and find that Walmart either doesn't have that item or their particular solution for me is not worth buying. Finally, many of the people who are dead-set against Walmart probably don't have children. Having children is probably the main reason you would find yourself buying some crap at Walmart.

 

[Eug]

My 2 cents, in random order:

1. I don't consider Kromer Radio close to Kensington Market. To me, it's a completely different neighbourhood.

2. I generally don't shop at Wal-Mart. Their grocery section is limited and disorganized, and the stores generally are shabby or even trashy. Pricing is good on individual items, but often not that good on others. So, I'll occasionally go there for very specific items but get most of my stuff elsewhere. For my main groceries I go to places like Loblaws.

3. Kensington Market is also shabby and disorganized, but it's not as trashy the same way like Wal-Mart is.

4. The fresh fruit and veggie stores in Kensington market generally suck IMHO. I never shop there for fruits and veggies, and instead go to Chinatown 1 block over for that stuff. Yeah, those Chinatown shops are also shabby and disorganized, but the stuff is generally fresher with better pricing.

5. I don't go there to buy underwear, although I sometimes might go there to buy some funky jewelry or clothes as gifts.

6. I go to Kensington Market to buy stuff like cheeses and humitas. Or maybe bread and pastries. And funky stuff as mentioned.

---

I guess what I'm saying is that for me Wal-Mart and Kensington Market don't overlap much in the first place. The stuff I buy at Kensington Market (imported cheese, Chilean takeout, etc.) is different from the occasional stuff I buy at Wal-Mart (baby formula, garden soil, etc.). Furthermore, the two sites (Kensington Market and the Kromer site) aren't even really that close to each other.

Oh and if there is some overlap for products sold like fresh fruits and veggies, then maybe it's a good thing, because Kensington has been sub-par for that stuff for a long time now. If they improve the quality, maybe I'll start buying that stuff there.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Kensington Market is also shabby and disorganized, but it's not as trashy the same way like Wal-Mart is. I go to Kensington Market to buy stuff like cheeses and humitas. Or maybe bread and pastries. And funky stuff as mentioned.

Kensington's "shabbiness" is part of its charm, and a lot of the time it's a cultivated shabbiness, and a result of its boho/counterculture constituency. It is far more than just a market...a great deal of the people who are there at any given time are actually there for the mixed boho vibe. It's a pretty unique neighbourhood...not just within Toronto, but there aren't many downtown neighbourhoods in NA like this any more (if at all). It's almost too touristy for its own good.

Kensington and Walmart may share some cheap & shabby attributes, but are on opposite ends of the political spectrum...and that is why Kensington would not want a Walmart.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

It's a pretty unique neighbourhood...not just within Toronto, but there aren't many downtown neighbourhoods in NA like this any more (if at all). It's almost too touristy for its own good.

Cultivated shabbiness, precisely. That accurately describes what has happened to St. Mark's Place and parts of Alphabet City in NYC during the last 10-15 years. It changes quite noticeably every time I'm there.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

So far, the best anyone can come up with (other than 'I don't like Wal-Marts', which is your right but not a reasonable objection to new construction of anything) seems to be 'it's bland' (as opposed to the current grey monolith slowly crumbling??? Really?) and the always-popular 'traffic' (across from the massive Toronto Western?), so basically it sounds like Wal-Mart will be a go.

 

[Eug]

Kensington's "shabbiness" is part of its charm, and a lot of the time it's a cultivated shabbiness, and a result of its boho/counterculture constituency. It is far more than just a market...a great deal of the people who are there at any given time are actually there for the mixed boho vibe. It's a pretty unique neighbourhood...not just within Toronto, but there aren't many downtown neighbourhoods in NA like this any more (if at all). It's almost too touristy for its own good.

Kensington and Walmart may share some cheap & shabby attributes, but are on opposite ends of the political spectrum...and that is why Kensington would not want a Walmart.

Yes I agree. I didn't say it as well as you, but the Wal-Mart shabbiness is trashy shabbiness. Kensington's is interesting.

So far, the best anyone can come up with (other than 'I don't like Wal-Marts', which is your right but not a reasonable objection to new construction of anything) seems to be 'it's bland' (as opposed to the current grey monolith slowly crumbling??? Really?) and the always-popular 'traffic' (across from the massive Toronto Western?), so basically it sounds like Wal-Mart will be a go.

That and the fact that the Wal-Mart wouldn't even be in Kensington Market. Much ado about nothing.

 

[ttk77]

Walmart has lead to the deaths of numerous small business communities across the US. Whether or not it will have a serious impact on Kensington market remains to be seen, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable and valid concern for those who value small business over global mega-corp, even if you disagree with the viewpoint. Some people want to get the best deal, and some people want to support their local community even if it costs them a bit more. If there is even a chance of it disturbing the local status-quo (and I think most on here would agree that Kensignton market as it is is a valued part of this city), then the Walmart proposal should be at least studied to determine what the impact would be.

The argument about the location of the proposed Walmart is specious at best. It may not be right in the Kensington neighbourhood, but it is close enough to have an impact. People don't go to Walmart to do their daily shopping. They bring their cars and load up a cart full. That's what Walmart is designed for, and when you've got your car, distance means a lot less.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Walmart has lead to the deaths of numerous small business communities across the US. Whether or not it will have a serious impact on Kensington market remains to be seen, but I think it's a perfectly reasonable and valid concern for those who value small business over global mega-corp, even if you disagree with the viewpoint. Some people want to get the best deal, and some people want to support their local community even if it costs them a bit more. If there is even a chance of it disturbing the local status-quo (and I think most on here would agree that Kensignton market as it is is a valued part of this city), then the Walmart proposal should be at least studied to determine what the impact would be.

The argument about the location of the proposed Walmart is specious at best. It may not be right in the Kensington neighbourhood, but it is close enough to have an impact. People don't go to Walmart to do their daily shopping. They bring their cars and load up a cart full. That's what Walmart is designed for, and when you've got your car, distance means a lot less.

1. WMT caused rural communities' downtowns to have issues. Clearly not a concern for central Toronto.
2. If WMT's customer base are not the same as Kensington's, then it should not be a concern for Kensington, either, right?

And maybe this is slightly more of a shot at progressives, but wouldn't low income activists normally welcome a 'cheap & cheerful' retailer with fresh food within walking distance of Alexandra Park? I'll still go to Jumbo Empanada for my fix despite WMT. I don't think Kensington is threatened, nor is Chinatown.