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No need to say "my heart bleeds". I was explaining the situation to someone who clearly had little understanding of what minor hockey consists of. Most people here (you probably included) have no clue what it's like to be in a hockey family. It isn't a sport for upper income folk, but it is certainly starting to become inaccessible for those living below the median income in their community and anything that adds to this is a problem.

Now, by "hockey establishment" who are you referring to? Hockey Canada? MLSE? the GTHL?
 
G&M weighs in

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ns-of-waterfront-hockey-arena/article1564139/

Apparently the caterwauling from the review panel and the newsies has sunk in. Greenberg is made to sound like a bit of a prima donna for resigning, as everyone else was opposed, too. Don't know if that's reality or his resignation and the news cycle around it were the catalyst for changes.

I'll be happy if they can agree on something that fits their 'sustainabiity' brief, but I must admit I'm more in favour of more ice and less sustainability, myself.
 
Obs. Walt:

Let's see an innovative design and some innovative thinking, not people picking up their marbles and stomping off home.

There is a site plan attached with the Star article - there is nothing innovative about the design. In fact, one would argue it fits better with say Hershey Centre than the Lower Donlands as the neighbourhood is planned. Besides, doesn't the proponent (i.e. the City of Toronto) has the responsiblity to ensure the compliance of the said facility to the overall goals of waterfront revitalization which it signed onto? No one in the WT panel suggested that having sports facilities is against the overall vision - it is the form that has been put forward that challenges the whole notion of design excellence.

AoD
 
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^^^ Exactly.

When did this issue become about building hockey rinks versus not building hockey rinks? This issue is the suburban design of the arenas clashing with the rest of our new urban masterpiece neighbourhood. There are other ways to design an arena.

The knee-jerk reaction by hockey fans is hilarious. Now it's a disussion about social status? Guys... seriously.
 
Kelly McParland: Toronto trendies appalled by plan for downtown hockey rinks

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/...nds-disaster-in-the-making.aspx#ixzz0ndehkosu

:rolleyes:



Inside Toronto article, with a site/concept plan

Giant parking lot may derail hockey arena plans in the port lands
c16cc106470cadd13d98c1a60309.jpeg

Giant parking lot may derail hockey arena plans in the port lands. The proposed site plan for the new Portlands Sports Complex would see a giant parking lot attached to the port lands hockey arena stretching all the way down to the shipping channel. The parking lot has the arena skating on thin ice. Photo/COURTESY


Plans to build a four-pad hockey arena in the port lands with a parking lot twice as large stretching to the edge of the shipping channel is skating on thin ice as far as local councillor Paula Fletcher is concerned.
"I have told the mayor and city manager there's no way I'm able to support that amount of surface parking on the waterfront," Fletcher said. "I'm very supportive of building a spectacular four-pad (hockey) arena with parking that's tucked away - a great fabulous building that will be an iconic waterfront building. But this is unsupportable, and I doubt it would make it through the Toronto and East York Community Council."

Fletcher made the comments after seeing a plan for the Portlands Sports Complex obtained by The Mirror.

The site plan shows the four-pad arena at the corner of Commissioners Street and Don Roadway. Surface parking for the project stretches south from there - with 433 parking spaces ranging as far south as the ship channel.

The design has already prompted the resignation of prominent planner/architect Ken Greenberg from the $34-million project.

In an interview, Greenberg said the project was always a chancy fit with Toronto's Lower Donlands Plan, which is coming forward to Toronto City Council in July. He said the plan, with suburban-style parking and a large footprint, sets the wrong precedent for the precinct.

"It would become the first thing to be built in the Lower Don Lands - so it becomes a signal of everything to come," he said. "There are ways of doing almost any facility that are more urban, more sustainable, and other things apart from the old paradigm of being automobile dependent and sprawling. This version of the four-pad arena is clearly an example of that way of doing things."

He said such a design might be appropriate, "in a fringe location, but to install it that way right on the new river, right on the edge of the film studios, in an area that's really planned to be a mixed-use neighbourhood, is just a huge conflict."

Greenberg had become involved in the project when he and U.S. partners won the Lower Don Lands Design Competition in 2007.

He resigned from the firm hired by the city to design this project last month.

He said the resignation came when the city demanded a "major change of course" from pursuing a design he felt fit better with the area.

"We were well down that road. We'd come up with some really creative solutions when there was a move to change course and just revert to the plan which you've seen," he said. "I couldn't stay involved in something like that."

City officials associated with the project weren't available for interview at Mirror press time Wednesday.
 
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I think that this tempest-in-a-teapot has at least a little to do with the fact that this would be the 'entrance' to the new Don River Park, and the planners want it to be a stunner, not a parking lot. I don't agree (if you want people to use the park, you'll need to provide some parking somewhere), but it that's what this is about, why don't the tuck the arenas back on Unwin beside the new soccer pitches? They can expand the new parking there to serve both (and the bike path) and build at least 2 pads to the west of the fields on a brownfield site.
 
I think that this tempest-in-a-teapot has at least a little to do with the fact that this would be the 'entrance' to the new Don River Park, and the planners want it to be a stunner, not a parking lot. I don't agree (if you want people to use the park, you'll need to provide some parking somewhere), but it that's what this is about, why don't the tuck the arenas back on Unwin beside the new soccer pitches? They can expand the new parking there to serve both (and the bike path) and build at least 2 pads to the west of the fields on a brownfield site.

People using the parks is hardly a concern. The new neighbourhood will have thousands of residents. There are tens of thousands more people living quite close to the area and many more who will bike through and use transit. Parking will mean even more people can come, but it has to be designed better, not with a sprawling surface level parking lot.
 
First of all, the site plan posted by Inside Toronto is misleading - it excluded pretty much all the parking south of the complex leading to the Shipping Channel. One can only wonder what their intent is. To facilitate comparison, I have created a series of maps illustrating the site context, general site plan and the location of the site vis-a-vis the MVVA Lower Donland scheme.

Site context (red denote the site)
SiteContext.jpg


Site plan (Turquoise is parking, Light Orange is the actual building)
Site.jpg


Site in the MVVA Lower Donlands Context
MVVAContext.jpg


AoD
 
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Aside from the encroachment of parking into the proposed parkland and natural areas, this plan is a disastrous waste of space!

The proper site configuration is to stack the arenas (1 pad on top of the other), so that they take up only the room for 2 surfaces.

then L-Shape buildings so that any surface parking (in a 2-level or 3-level garage, can be concealed from any street views and occupy a much smaller footprint.

Its not hard, its structural feasible, and the cost is by no means prohibitive.

***

All that said, this is not the priority location for new arena building.

When one looks at the right age-demographics (where the kids are) and where the lines for arena time are longest, one would note that North Toronto, Don Mills and Leaside are the areas most short of space.

There is already land purchased for a new ice pad beside the existing Leaside Memorial Arena, but no funding to build it. There is already a proposal to replace the Don Mills Citivan Arena with a new 2 pad complex (maybe 3) at the York Mills/DVP interchange ( n/w corner, the abandoned ramp); and also no money for that.

Move the money to where the demand is, and where no controversy will ensue.

Move the damned Moss Park Amoury down there while were at it (to the portlands) then you can build a new Recreation Centre next to Moss Park (replacing the exiting one which would become park space) with a new twin-pad arena underground, and the swimming and gym amenities above surface.

Done.

All for less cost, less controversy and with better urban planning in mind.

:cool:
 
Granted the city doesn't own Hearn, but as a mental exercise would it be a great place to put a 4 pad hockey arena (maybe with room to spare for an indoor aquatic centre, using waste heat from the refridgeration units?) It would be a great adaptive reuse project, for one.

AoD
 
This is absolutely insane and needs to be stopped. I just got off the phone from freaking out on David Miller's office, as well as Pam McConnel's and Paula Fletcher's. Stuff like this just makes me mad as hell. Miller promises one thing but then delivers another. After talking to McConnel's and Fletcher's offices, I'm a bit relieved, as both claim it will not be built to this plan. They told me a lot of people are freaking out.
 
All that said, this is not the priority location for new arena building. When one looks at the right age-demographics (where the kids are) and where the lines for arena time are longest, one would note that North Toronto, Don Mills and Leaside are the areas most short of space. There is already land purchased for a new ice pad beside the existing Leaside Memorial Arena, but no funding to build it. There is already a proposal to replace the Don Mills Citivan Arena with a new 2 pad complex (maybe 3) at the York Mills/DVP interchange ( n/w corner, the abandoned ramp); and also no money for that.

Move the money to where the demand is, and where no controversy will ensue.

Move the damned Moss Park Amoury down there while were at it (to the portlands) then you can build a new Recreation Centre next to Moss Park (replacing the exiting one which would become park space) with a new twin-pad arena underground, and the swimming and gym amenities above surface.

Done.

All for less cost, less controversy and with better urban planning in mind.

:cool:

Hear, hear! Best idea so far.
 
From the Star, by Hume:

Hume: Design community rises up
Published On Tue May 11 2010
By Christopher Hume

Responding to a storm of criticism unleashed by a controversial scheme to build a sport facility on the waterfront, Toronto Mayor David Miller now says city staff members are prepared to “tinker†with the project.

Tinker?

Clearly, His Worship still doesn’t get it. Given that he sits on the board of Waterfront Toronto, the agency created in 2001 to oversee waterfront revitalization, that is troubling, though not surprising.

Surely Miller is aware the organization has spent 10 years and millions of dollars planning sustainable mixed-use neighbourhoods that will house 100,000 residents. Surely he realizes that simply plunking a four-rink facility and a 440-car parking lot in the middle of that future neighbourhood doesn’t make sense.

No surprise then that respected planner/architect Ken Greenberg resigned from the project. Little wonder that all 12 members of the Waterfront Design Review Panel are now threatening to resign over the issue. The blue-ribbon body, assembled with much back-patting in 2007 to advise on all matters relating to the public realm, has grown accustomed to being ignored. This is why the panel decided to draw the line with the sport complex, which flies in the face of everything it was asked to do.

“City staff have been reviewing the design for several weeks,†Miller told the Star yesterday. “The big issue from an urban design perspective is trying to make the footprint of the arena much less — more of an urban arena, less suburban. The city is reviewing the costing for that for a while. The location has been reviewed for a long time.â€

That review came about as a result of Greenberg’s resignation. Beyond that, Miller characterizes the choice as one between condos and recreation for kids. “To suggest replacing condos with recreation for children hurts the design,†Miller says. “I really don’t think that’s a tenable position.â€

The irony is, there’s room on the waterfront to accommodate a sports facility. Done properly, it could be a major civic asset and a national, even global, destination.

Hard to remember now, but there was a time when the Toronto design community was Miller’s biggest supporter. There were roundtables, discussions, conferences, reports, design review panels… . Suddenly, the public realm was a public issue and Toronto was going to transform itself.

What’s so dispiriting is that the willingness to settle for second-rate is so deeply ingrained in the culture of Toronto. City Hall has become a mediocracy, a system set up to choose the cheapest bid, the short-term answer, the easiest way out, the most expedient solution. This leaves little room for excellence.

The sports complex has emerged as a metaphor for all that’s wrong not just on the waterfront but with planning in general; the lack of vision, the fear of thinking big, of being bold and holding out for what’s best.

So the timing was right for a group of 25 prominent Torontonians in the planning, architecture and design fields to petition city council yesterday, issuing a call for “a new planning vision for Toronto.â€

According to the letter’s signatories, including Toronto’s former chief planner, Paul Bedford, “the existing planning system’s narrow focus upon transactional and utilitarian functions of land use and density zoning are no longer adequate. A new planning regime must pay attention to the daily lived experiences of Torontonians while proposing a narrative for an inclusive, creative, sustainable, beautiful and prosperous city….â€

“This is the start of a process to create a stronger planning department,†says downtown councillor Adam Vaughan, “a better planning process and a more powerful chief planner through a partnership with city hall and civil society.â€

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/807991--hume-design-community-rises-up?bn=1
________________

]That review came about as a result of Greenberg’s resignation. Beyond that, Miller characterizes the choice as one between condos and recreation for kids. “To suggest replacing condos with recreation for children hurts the design,†Miller says. “I really don’t think that’s a tenable position.â€

Actually, his worship needs to remind himself why the Lower Donlands plan are the way it is - I thought stewardship of the environment for future generations has something to do with children...

AoD
 
WHY NOT JUST PUT THE PARKING ON THE ROOF OF THE COMPLEX... So there would be a ramp up and a ramp down and 4 hockey pads would be a significant size that would provide a good amount of parking.
 
WHY NOT JUST PUT THE PARKING ON THE ROOF OF THE COMPLEX... So there would be a ramp up and a ramp down and 4 hockey pads would be a significant size that would provide a good amount of parking.

I dunno, a lot of those hockey Dads drive pretty big vehicles, meaning the roof might require some pretty sophisticated support structures. (Remember: you can't have load bearing columns in the middle of a hockey rink.)

Also, when viewed on Google Maps, a sea of cars parked on a roof looks like a surface parking lot. And you know how much UTers hate surface parking lots.
 

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