[Midtown Urbanist]

Peering through the Lower Don Lands / Portlands EA that got released earlier in the week, I can see now why they are projecting high ridership on Waterfront East LRT.

Villiers Island alone is expected to have between 8,200 to 10,700 people whose only transit access really will be the Cherry Streetcar. (For reference, the entire West Don Lands is supposed to house merely 6,000 people upon completion.)

Acording to the EA, the East Bayfront district is looking at 6,000 Residential Units (using Villiers Island math; that comes to between 10,080 and 13,200 people) and 8,000 jobs.

The Keating Channel District (north side of Keatin Channel), is projecting 4,000 Residential Units (6,720 to 8,800 people).

The Polson Quay & South River District (south of Villiers Island) is projected 4,500 people.

The Film Studio District (east of Villiers Island; Cherry Streetcar to turn east on Commissioners into this district) is projected 9,225–13,350 people and 9,500–14,500 jobs.

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Added together, that is some 38,725 to 50,550 people along with 20,400 to 25,400 jobs (and this is not counting Lower Yonge and Jarvis precincts, and assuming East Harbour workers take other transit lines) that you got to pack on the streetcar/LRT line along Waterfront East/Cherry Street.

Evidently, these figures are projected for 2050 full-build out scenario, but the East Harbour and other sites along Queens Quay are going to be full of residents in the relatively near future already. We are creating plans for a community that relies on a single transit line to get anywhere, and is rather isolated otherwise. Seeing these numbers on the screen shows the importance of beginning to build transit ahead of time, lest we end with another Humber Bay Shores.

 

[DSC]

That's exactly why Waterfront Toronto used to have the manta "Transit First" and why they started transit planning for Queens Quay East about a decade ago. Then they and the City took their eyes off the ball and started approving developments based on vague promises to get the LRT built. Now we are looking at a choice of a rather experimental 'sideways cable-car', a moving sidewalk in a damp tunnel or simply a walk along the same tunnel. Sad!

 

[toaster29]

Peering through the Lower Don Lands / Portlands EA that got released earlier in the week, I can see now why they are projecting high ridership on Waterfront East LRT.

Villiers Island alone is expected to have between 8,200 to 10,700 people whose only transit access really will be the Cherry Streetcar. (For reference, the entire West Don Lands is supposed to house merely 6,000 people upon completion.)

View attachment 123791

Acording to the EA, the East Bayfront district is looking at 6,000 Residential Units (using Villiers Island math; that comes to between 10,080 and 13,200 people) and 8,000 jobs.

The Keating Channel District (north side of Keatin Channel), is projecting 4,000 Residential Units (6,720 to 8,800 people).

The Polson Quay & South River District (south of Villiers Island) is projected 4,500 people.

The Film Studio District (east of Villiers Island; Cherry Streetcar to turn east on Commissioners into this district) is projected 9,225–13,350 people and 9,500–14,500 jobs.

-----

Added together, that is some 38,725 to 50,550 people along with 20,400 to 25,400 jobs (and this is not counting Lower Yonge and Jarvis precincts, and assuming East Harbour workers take other transit lines) that you got to pack on the streetcar/LRT line along Waterfront East/Cherry Street.

Evidently, these figures are projected for 2050 full-build out scenario, but the East Harbour and other sites along Queens Quay are going to be full of residents in the relatively near future already. We are creating plans for a community that relies on a single transit line to get anywhere, and is rather isolated otherwise. Seeing these numbers on the screen shows the importance of beginning to build transit ahead of time, lest we end with another Humber Bay Shores.

If this is being done in phases, should Humber Bay Shores not get priority then since the density is already there? I mean, in an imaginary world, yes, you would want the transit in place first, but that hasn't happened and the city has systemically downplayed their responsibility for transit in the Park Lawn/Lake Shore area (waiting on the developer at Mr. Chrities, underreporting the area's growth when creating the new Ward boundaries, putting the responsibility of local transit onto the province, when it is clearly a municipal responsibility). If you could only choose 1 at a time (which is how Toronto likes to do things), and were basing your reasoning on fact, need, and current (built) numbers, Humber Bay Shores should have priority.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The thing with Humber Bay shores is that a large majority of travel patterns are not downtown bound. This means the LRT is relatively low demand - a lot of travel movements are on the Gardiner heading out to Etobicoke and Mississauga. The downtown waterfront on the other hand has a much more limited trip destination area - mostly downtown. Means that the LRT is higher demand.

Of course the amount of employment on the waterfront compared to Humber Bay is also a huge driver.

 

[toaster29]

The thing with Humber Bay shores is that a large majority of travel patterns are not downtown bound. This means the LRT is relatively low demand - a lot of travel movements are on the Gardiner heading out to Etobicoke and Mississauga. The downtown waterfront on the other hand has a much more limited trip destination area - mostly downtown. Means that the LRT is higher demand.

Of course the amount of employment on the waterfront compared to Humber Bay is also a huge driver.

Why might that be? It's pretty clear to me.. Many people who are looking to move, who work downtown, likely wouldn't choose Humber Bay precisely because there is no rapid transit to get downtown. This would likely happen in the east end too. Close highway access and no rapid transit would lead/open the market to many working in Scarborough or Durham who want to be close enough to downtown to live there. What are you explaining is precisely why rapid transit should be in the area.

 

[DSC]

 

[44 North]

Yes it was and rejected since it couldn't interline with the network. We didn't want another SRT on our hands.

When the Expo plan surface, it made no different what system was used, it would fail since Union was the weak link. Monorail was the prefer choice of the city, but what do you do with it after Expo was over since it only service a small area of the big plan was their concerns.

During the 2004-2006 Master Plan EA, I prepared a list showing every mode for transit that show carrying capacity of every type of vehicle, peak point load that would determined the number of vehicles and headway. At the end of the day, streetcars won hands down and this was before talk of a new fleet that exist today.

Even though we were only looking at a small section, we took into consideration how other lines could interline with the Portland Master Plan. We saw then a full east-west line bypassing Union as well having any 5XX being part of the east-west line, as well going to Union. That idea still exist today.

You wouldn't happen to recall the QQE loads projected if we hosted an Expo or Olympics? Regardless, what we know is that the plans for QQE/Union are underbuilt and will be over-capacity. Doesn't take a genius to read the peak point projections and divide by the capacity of an Outlook LFLRV operating tram-style or crawling into Union. It's insufficient. My belief for quite some time is that both your and the City's evolving plans were flawed from day one. Reason: not considering grade-separating QQE between Union and approx Parliament. Why make the jump between an in-median legacy streetcar and something silly like a monorail? You skipped the step of keeping the line as LFRLV, but grade-separating the central portion - much in the same way we're doing with Eglinton. I'm quite confident that doing so is the only way of a) meeting the goals of an integrated system, and b) future-proofing the east waterfront.

I know you've stated that along with QQE we should be planning a parallel LRT along Lake Shore East in order to meet demand, but I think that's redundant and won't actually solve much. Not to mention a hard sell politically. Best way IMO is to have the QQE line below-grade (or elevated) between approx Freeland and Parliament/Cherry. Stations would be simple and not unlike Ferry Docks.

 

[crs1026]

Sadly the "same old argument" is not the one we have been having here on UT.

It's the City saying Humber Bay should be solved by the Province, by moving the GO station, and the Province saying it should be solved by the City, by improving TTC service. So much for governments working together.

Personally, I don't care which .... just get on with something. Anything.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

Enough planning, do something! Build the Lake Shore LRT along a private right-of-way to an enlarged Union Station loop.

 

[sixrings]

Enough planning, do something! Build the Lake Shore LRT along a private right-of-way to an enlarged Union Station loop.

build a Queensway LRT while at it... Condos are popping up there left right and center.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

build a Queensway LRT while at it... Condos are popping up there left right and center.

A queensway streetcar, even. All of south Etobicoke needs a properly planned transit grid.

From the Line 2 West Extension thread:

 

[muller877]

The Film Studio District (east of Villiers Island; Cherry Streetcar to turn east on Commissioners into this district) is projected 9,225–13,350 people and 9,500–14,500 jobs.
.

I think it's crazy that they want to build a node for low density employment such as film on prime waterfront land. Encourage the conversion of industrial land near Cinespace (Kipling).

Even worse, due to the heavy size of the equipment and the odd working hours most people in the film industry drive. So low density commercial space plus lots of parking lots.

 

[junctionist]

Sadly the "same old argument" is not the one we have been having here on UT.

It's the City saying Humber Bay should be solved by the Province, by moving the GO station, and the Province saying it should be solved by the City, by improving TTC service. So much for governments working together.

Personally, I don't care which .... just get on with something. Anything.

- Paul

LRT and GO serve different needs. People commuting to Mississauga and downtown could use frequent all-day GO service. People headed to west end business districts like Roncesvalles, Liberty Village, or Queen West, for instance, could benefit more from an LRT line. A decent transit system makes it easy to get to the most popular destinations at the times of greatest demand. A great transit system makes it quick and easy to get anywhere in the city at any time. It's only in a city with a great transit system can you expect transit to dominate the modal split like many people dream of for Toronto.

 

[BurlOak]

A queensway streetcar, even. All of south Etobicoke needs a properly planned transit grid.

From the Line 2 West Extension thread:

Regarding the Dundas area, I don't wan't the subway to pass 427 - it adds big costs. It's a bit of a walk from the Honeydale Station to the 427 NB BRT (about 350m) and the 427 SB BRT / Dundas LRT terminal (550m including bridge). Of course, if the downtowners can do it from Queen's Quay to Union, this can be done too.

 

[nfitz]

I think it's crazy that they want to build a node for low density employment such as film on prime waterfront land.

I don't think that's long-term but for short to medium-term. More a case of keeping big-box out; which is worse employment,would be very car-centric, and difficult to move when the day comes.

Even worse, due to the heavy size of the equipment and the odd working hours most people in the film industry drive. So low density commercial space plus lots of parking lots.

There's certainly driving; but when on-set most aren't dragging home huge pieces of equipment, and when on location the equipment is mostly trucked. I see people on transit commuting in that industry, and some can't afford cars. Portlands development is going to take decades.