[Markster]

I'd hardly call it one of the bigger transit terminals built.

I think there's a silent "in Canada" or perhaps "in Ontario" in there. In terms of multi-modal integration, it's pretty big.

This new station has fewer platforms than the existing one, actually. If you want to be picky about platforms, then you could include the on-street bus stops, which are the only provision for municipal buses. The old station has 5 inter-city, and 16 municipal platforms. The new one will have 2 LRT, 3 train, 5 inter-city bus, and 0 municipal platforms (due to a grid-ifying of the network due to take place in 2017).

 

[ShonTron]

I think there's a silent "in Canada" or perhaps "in Ontario" in there. In terms of multi-modal integration, it's pretty big.

This new station has fewer platforms than the existing one, actually. If you want to be picky about platforms, then you could include the on-street bus stops, which are the only provision for municipal buses. The old station has 5 inter-city, and 16 municipal platforms. The new one will have 2 LRT, 3 train, 5 inter-city bus, and 0 municipal platforms (due to a grid-ifying of the network due to take place in 2017).

I read the whole PIC boards, they are quite interesting.

It said that some GRT routes will use the bus terminal, but I think that this may only be routes 4, 6, 19/20 since they come in at that direction. The local 7 will stop outside, and the 1, 2, 3, 8, 15, 18, 23, 24, 25 will connect with the LRT at Benton/Frederick.

 

[nfitz]

I think there's a silent "in Canada" or perhaps "in Ontario" in there. In terms of multi-modal integration, it's pretty big.

I assumed it was a silent "in Kitchener". There's several big or bigger in the GTA. Kennedy and Kipling stations come to mind. And Union of course. And a few more planned.

It will certainly be a welcome facility though!

 

[Markster]

I'd say it's in a different class than Kipling/Kennedy, by virtue of the variety of connections available. I wouldn't deny that those are certainly formidable bus malls (with a GO Train connection), but I wouldn't exactly say that those locations are doing the service of providing a comfortable, high quality, transit experience in an urban environment.

Clearly Union is the largest multi-modal station in Canada. I don't believe the claim was that it was going to be "the biggest".

The (unfortunate) fact is that this station is going to put the transit centres of most Canadian cities to shame. (Like Ottawa...)

 

[nfitz]

I'd say it's in a different class than Kipling/Kennedy, by virtue of the variety of connections available.

I'd agree - it will never be as busy as those hubs, nor will it have the same variety of connections.

The (unfortunate) fact is that this station is going to put the transit centres of most Canadian cities to shame. (Like Ottawa...)

Well Ottawa does have the rather oddly named Train Station station. It has more trains currently than Kitchener, about 6 platforms opposed to 2, and served by over 40 bus routes, a mix of BRT and local services. Not sure how they will handle local bus service one the BRT is converted to LRT.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'd say it's in a different class than Kipling/Kennedy, by virtue of the variety of connections available. I wouldn't deny that those are certainly formidable bus malls (with a GO Train connection), but I wouldn't exactly say that those locations are doing the service of providing a comfortable, high quality, transit experience in an urban environment.

Clearly Union is the largest multi-modal station in Canada. I don't believe the claim was that it was going to be "the biggest".

The (unfortunate) fact is that this station is going to put the transit centres of most Canadian cities to shame. (Like Ottawa...)

The Kitchener station seems nice....not sure the need to pump it up by criticising others. Kipling has, what, trains/subways/buses? Kitchener will have trains/lrt/buses? So a "draw" in terms of modes of transit connecting....I would bet the volumes of people using Kitchener would never approach what Kipling has.

Kitchener kinda reminds me of Brampton (in a new build versus workaround what you got sorta way). GO/VIA - check, buses (local, local express, GO) - check, planned LRT - check. All integrated into an older, existing, municipality.

Certainly nothing to criticise there but the hyperbole seems a bit stretched.

 

[nfitz]

I would bet the volumes of people using Kitchener would never approach what Kipling has.

No where near! The Kipling subway platforms alone has more about 25% more passengers per day than the entire Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge transit system combined! Kitchener will increase, but so will Kipling, with plans to move some of the Islington services to Kipling, as well as run much of the Mississauga Transit and GO Transit transitway services to Kipling.

And just the subway platform alone at Kennedy is about 30% busier than Kipling.

The potential for development of these two nodes is huge.

That being said, the plans for Kitchener look tremendous! If only there were similar plans advancing for many of the 905 communities. The difference in Kitchener is that the local governments are driving it, while for much of the 905, the province is driving it (though some of of York's plans look impressive, if they can pull it off).[/QUOTE]

 

[TOareaFan]

No where near! The Kipling subway platforms alone has more about 25% more passengers per day than the entire Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge transit system combined! Kitchener will increase, but so will Kipling, with plans to move some of the Islington services to Kipling, as well as run much of the Mississauga Transit and GO Transit transitway services to Kipling.

And just the subway platform alone at Kennedy is about 30% busier than Kipling.

The potential for development of these two nodes is huge.

That being said, the plans for Kitchener look tremendous! If only there were similar plans advancing for many of the 905 communities. The difference in Kitchener is that the local governments are driving it, while for much of the 905, the province is driving it (though some of of York's plans look impressive, if they can pull it off).

I think we are saying the same thing...no? One can be, concurrently, impressed with what is planned in Kitchener without feeling the need to pump it beyond what it is by understating other places (like Kipling). That is how I see it....great project!

 

[nfitz]

I think we are saying the same thing...no? One can be, concurrently, impressed with what is planned in Kitchener without feeling the need to pump it beyond what it is by understating other places (like Kipling). That is how I see it....great project!

Yes, we are - I was agreeing with you!

 

[TOareaFan]

Yes, we are - I was agreeing with you!

I thought that was what was going down....just not used to you and I seeing things exactly the same way

 

[gweed123]

I think we are saying the same thing...no? One can be, concurrently, impressed with what is planned in Kitchener without feeling the need to pump it beyond what it is by understating other places (like Kipling). That is how I see it....great project!

I think it's all relative to the size of the region.

Yes, in Toronto this wouldn't be a big deal. But in Kitchener this is going to be one of the largest transit hubs in the Region.

 

[Hipster Duck]

It's good to see a mid-sized city like Kitchener plan itself around a multi-modal terminal of a respectable size. I hope they pull it off.

It's been a real treat over the last 10 years to watch downtown Kitchener evolve after nearly 30 years of near-fatal mistakes. First they built that wonderful, covered farmer's market, then they redid King street, and now they're building that courthouse complex. The LRT will be the jewel in the crown. I hope they redevelop the Charles street bus terminal property, because it would really help connect the King street/city hall area to Victoria park - which is the downtown asset that Kitchener never lost.

 

[mpd618]

One of the interesting things about the transit hub is that this part of downtown Kitchener is really being grown as a (tech-focused) business district. Ten years ago it was just the warehouse district, with abandoned or dying industries and not much else. Now, a block away is the Tannery, which houses Google, Desire2Learn, two start-up incubators, and much else -- and some of those companies bus employees in from the GTA.

Directly next to the hub is the Breithaupt Block, which is a similar office loft conversion that will have its own collection of prominent companies. At one corner of King & Victoria is the Kaufman Lofts and at another is the new University of Waterloo School of Pharmacy. Nearby the City of Kitchener has grand plans to turn its vacated Bramm Street Yards into part of this downtown expansion. There's still plenty of surface parking lots in the area, but the city is looking at them as development opportunities, and all the current development plans in the area are very urban in form.

(What helped much of this area get going was the City of Kitchener putting $110 million into getting it going.)

All of that will mean that once the north mainline tracks can support better service, this has the potential to be a pretty big "reverse direction" destination in a classic CBD way.

 

[gweed123]

All of that will mean that once the north mainline tracks can support better service, this has the potential to be a pretty big "reverse direction" destination in a classic CBD way.

To me that's one of the biggest transportation keys for Kitchener. Running an O-Train style DMU between Kitchener and Guelph in addition to the GO Train service along the Kitchener corridor would be a huge boost.

Just off the top of my head, a service with stops at Fischer Hallman, King Terminal, Bingemans Centre, Imperial, Guelph Terminal, Watson Parkway. With potential additional stops in Kitchener at Westmount and Congestoga Parkway.

I can see this type of service being pretty popular as an inter-city commuter service, as well as a sort of express service to get people into downtown Kitchener. There isn't quite the same N-S existing rail line axis, so I think that the current LRT plan is the best bet for that corridor.

But given the fact that GO is going to be spending a fair amount of money to upgrade that corridor over time, a similar $50 million price tag for rolling stock and basic stations may not be out of the question.

 

[Hipster Duck]

But given the fact that GO is going to be spending a fair amount of money to upgrade that corridor over time, a similar $50 million price tag for rolling stock and basic stations may not be out of the question.

We can only hope! Ideally, I'd like to see three types of service using the line. A DMU LRT betwen Kitchener and Guelph, running on a fairly frequent schedule (like every 30 minutes), existing GO trains with bi-levels at rush hour, and - this is my dream - having GO buy Talgo sets, or some other FRA-compatible but comfy and modern intercity coaches, and running hourly intercity service to Union that make stops at Kitchener, Guelph, Georgetown, Brampton, some airport transfer-to-the-LINK station near Attwell Road, Bloor and Union.

It would purely be an investment in rolling stock, and not in fixed capital.