[ehlow]

Sorry I should've just Googled it. It looks like there are two trains from Kitchener to Union
5:49 to 7:53
7:07 to 9:08

So, 2 hours. I think it needs to get down to 1:30 at least before it's attractive, and it seems there are only two trains to Union in the morning, and two going back in the afternoon. It's definitely not possible for someone who lives in Toronto to use it for working in Kitchener. I think they would need to add more trains for it to be worth using.

 

[TOareaFan]

Sorry I should've just Googled it. It looks like there are two trains from Kitchener to Union
5:49 to 7:53
7:07 to 9:08

So, 2 hours. I think it needs to get down to 1:30 at least before it's attractive, and it seems there are only two trains to Union in the morning, and two going back in the afternoon. It's definitely not possible for someone who lives in Toronto to use it for working in Kitchener. I think they would need to add more trains for it to be worth using.

As someone who benefits from it I guess I am not going to complain too much....but it really is amazing how much attention/focus KW being on this line has brought to the topic of all day two way service....for what, a couple/few hundred riders a day potential.....when there are stations along the way with much bigger ridership and much greater potential for more riders who have been asking their political reps for decades for upgraded service and, either, been ignored or told no.

bring it on KW...but it is bizarre.

 

[dunkalunk]

If that happens, great. But currently they don't even have all day 2 way service at normal speeds, let alone at 150km/h, so to me it seems at least years away from happening.

They don't even have 2-way all day service to parts of the GTA other than the lakeshore line. Hopefully it will happen. (any ETA?)

I'd actually counter this argument by saying that that track improvements are a precursor to improved speed. Regardless of how frequent it runs, if your train costs $2 more and take double the time of what it takes to get into Downtown Toronto by Greyhound, people will take Greyhound.

Not to mention that running 12-car deisel locomotives making all station stops into Union is completely inappropriate for trips that long. Taking a queue from Caltrain (Bay Area) 1h 30m is their threshold for express service.

 

[mpd618]

I wonder if more people will choose Toronto as a bedroom community and work in Waterloo or vice-versa when all is said and done. I can see Toronto being really appealing to the young tech crowd, considering Waterloo is quite quiet in comparison, maybe that's just my narrow University memories talking though.

I've heard that something like a quarter of Google's workforce in Kitchener is from Toronto, and I know that it, along with a number of other employers, run daily buses in from the GTA.

As someone who benefits from it I guess I am not going to complain too much....but it really is amazing how much attention/focus KW being on this line has brought to the topic of all day two way service....for what, a couple/few hundred riders a day potential.....when there are stations along the way with much bigger ridership and much greater potential for more riders who have been asking their political reps for decades for upgraded service and, either, been ignored or told no.

bring it on KW...but it is bizarre.

Greyhound runs frequent and packed buses, as does GO (to Mississauga). The 401 is quite busy at all hours. I think there is way more than "a few hundred riders" in potential if there's all-day / two-way / faster service.

I suspect the reason it is coming up is because of the economic development potential that can be realized in Kitchener-Waterloo if it can source talent from Toronto. There has been a very strong push by the local municipalities and the tech community to get GO service that comes into K-W - see the business case (PDF) presented to the province that focuses on the increased income tax base that would result. K-W is generating start-ups in ridiculous quantities, which benefit from local engineering and development talent, but for business, marketing, and so on, many have to open a Toronto office or go abroad. The argument is that the K-W - Toronto area could be generating much more economic activity for Ontario and Canada if there was better transit between the two cities.

 

[mpd618]

As far as I understand, the hub property will be used for construction staging for the King Street underpass and probably some LRT construction itself. There are still studies underway on the transit hub, which I believe are ultimately leading to some kind of public-private RFP process for developing the site as a mixed-use property, possibly in phases.

 

[ehlow]

I support 2 way all day service to KW, but it should really go to other parts of the GTA as well, and that should probably be higher priority. I mean, many cities in the GTA won't be too happy if KW gets it before them (ex Richmond Hill).

 

[MrsNesbitt]

There should not be any doubt that a better (more frequent first, and faster second, I think is most important) GO service to KW would attract far more than a few hundred riders. As was mentioned above, the Greyhounds are packed, and so are often the GO Route 25 buses. KW is very important to the economy of our province, with tech sector playing a particularly important role, and the fact that we need to rely on privately-run buses (Greyhound), or even automobiles, to get there reliably most of the time is frustrating to no end.

And apologies for straying off topic from the Waterloo LRT, which I also happen to think will be a great boon to that fast-expanding region

 

[innsertnamehere]

any way you could give a copy of that e-mail? I'd love to read it.

 

[TOareaFan]

I'd actually counter this argument by saying that that track improvements are a precursor to improved speed. Regardless of how frequent it runs, if your train costs $2 more and take double the time of what it takes to get into Downtown Toronto by Greyhound, people will take Greyhound.

Greyhound schedule says they take from 1 hour and 35 minutes to 2 hours and 45 minutes....so the current GO train is not double the time.....fares range from $9 - $23 (i left out the refundable $28 as there is no GO equivalent)....GO is $14.50 on a presto card.

So if what you are suggesting is that travel time has to get to (or below 1 1/2 hours) that means bypassing a lot of stations with likely higher ridership and if you are suggesting the fare, even at half hour service, has to get to or below $9 then that is gonna have to be a heavily subsidized service (not to mention would probably call for lowering of fares system wide - after all, hard to charge $9 from Georgetown to Union if someone else is getting $9 from Kitchener).

I get what people are saying......faster, frequent and cheaper trains will lead to more ridership (that applies everywhere, not just KW).......but within GO's current operating climate that is not likely to happen (maybe the more frequent part will but they will still be milk runnish type trains and will still cost around $15 each way).

 

[TOareaFan]

I support 2 way all day service to KW, but it should really go to other parts of the GTA as well, and that should probably be higher priority. I mean, many cities in the GTA won't be too happy if KW gets it before them (ex Richmond Hill).

Yes, all over the system there are people who have been getting the vague promises/hints of all AD2way7day service the point I was making that on this very line there are heavily populated centres that have been looking for it for some time .....and not getting close.....if part of the plan for all day service to KW is to have a significant number of those new trains just whiz by those stations without stopping (in the effort to get the KW travel times down) that will just add insult to injury and will likely become a very political matter.....such is the problem with playing politics with transit (I would suggest the excitement over GO train service to Kitchener is the provincial equivalent of the overbuilding of subways to Scarborough....winning those KW seats may have a political cost further down the line....pun intended).

 

[nfitz]

Sorry I should've just Googled it. It looks like there are two trains from Kitchener to Union
5:49 to 7:53
7:07 to 9:08

So, 2 hours. I think it needs to get down to 1:30 at least before it's attractive, and it seems there are only two trains to Union in the morning, and two going back in the afternoon. It's definitely not possible for someone who lives in Toronto to use it for working in Kitchener. I think they would need to add more trains for it to be worth using.

That's the GO Trains. There are also 2 VIA trains a day (including weekends).

They leave Union at 10:55 arriving 12:36 (1:41) and 5:40 pm arriving 7:20 pm (1:40). The return to Toronto leaves Kitchener at 9:10 am and 9:35 pm, and takes 1:40 and 1:45.

So there's hope it could be down to 1:30 one day, with an express service.

 

[ehlow]

Yes, all over the system there are people who have been getting the vague promises/hints of all AD2way7day service the point I was making that on this very line there are heavily populated centres that have been looking for it for some time .....and not getting close.....if part of the plan for all day service to KW is to have a significant number of those new trains just whiz by those stations without stopping (in the effort to get the KW travel times down) that will just add insult to injury and will likely become a very political matter.....such is the problem with playing politics with transit (I would suggest the excitement over GO train service to Kitchener is the provincial equivalent of the overbuilding of subways to Scarborough....winning those KW seats may have a political cost further down the line....pun intended).

KW is usually a swing riding, I think for both provincial and federal (correct me if I'm wrong). But if KW gets 2 way all day service, and it doesn't skip stops so that all the cities along that line also get the additional service, that seems like a good result.

Anyways, we'd probably all like to see more GO service on all the lines.

 

[dunkalunk]

Greyhound schedule says they take from 1 hour and 35 minutes to 2 hours and 45 minutes....so the current GO train is not double the time.....fares range from $9 - $23 (i left out the refundable $28 as there is no GO equivalent)....GO is $14.50 on a presto card.

So if what you are suggesting is that travel time has to get to (or below 1 1/2 hours) that means bypassing a lot of stations with likely higher ridership and if you are suggesting the fare, even at half hour service, has to get to or below $9 then that is gonna have to be a heavily subsidized service (not to mention would probably call for lowering of fares system wide - after all, hard to charge $9 from Georgetown to Union if someone else is getting $9 from Kitchener).

I get what people are saying......faster, frequent and cheaper trains will lead to more ridership (that applies everywhere, not just KW).......but within GO's current operating climate that is not likely to happen (maybe the more frequent part will but they will still be milk runnish type trains and will still cost around $15 each way).

OK, you caught me on hyperbole. It's not double. It is still another hour I'm sitting on a train/bus/transferring at Square One with GO compared to Greyhound.

I am not suggesting that a train trip to Toronto should cost $9. The $14 figure ($13.41 tax included, I use Presto) is actually pretty fair. I am suggesting that the price of the service should be at least competitive when it relates to the speed of the service. For this to happen at the current fare, travel time needs to be at least less that of a Greyhound ($9 is the advanced web fare which is usually not possible to get on weekends or short notice. I usually pay $11+tax+online booking fee)

If travel times were the same (platform waiting time included) I'd gladly pay the $2-3 premium for the pleasure of not visiting the Toronto Coach Terminal and taking my chances with getting a seat on the bus which does not take me on a tour of Guelph (2h30m travel time). It is for these reasons that at peak travel times, I just don't even bother trying to get out of Toronto on Greyhound. With GO, I can show up maybe 5-10 minutes before the departure and be guaranteed a spot on the same vehicle I paid money to get on.

About skipping stops, I am suggesting that trains travelling to the end of the line should bypass a significant number of stops on the inner portions.

For example, there's no reason that the Toronto-Kitchener train should stop at Mt. Pleasant, Malton, Etobicoke North, or Weston. If people need to get off another stop on the line, they can make a timed transfer to a local train at Georgetown or Bramalea or transfer to a bus service (a lot of them make stops at Bramalea.)

Eliminating milk-run stops for service that runs to the end of the line is the single easiest thing that GO can do to speed up the trip with existing technology. In general, the peak-direction commuter model needs to change, and corridor upgrades need to be made. Until that time, there are significant gains in travel time that will shift more people onto trains.

 

[BMO]

There should not be any doubt that a better (more frequent first, and faster second, I think is most important) GO service to KW would attract far more than a few hundred riders. As was mentioned above, the Greyhounds are packed, and so are often the GO Route 25 buses. KW is very important to the economy of our province, with tech sector playing a particularly important role, and the fact that we need to rely on privately-run buses (Greyhound), or even automobiles, to get there reliably most of the time is frustrating to no end.

And apologies for straying off topic from the Waterloo LRT, which I also happen to think will be a great boon to that fast-expanding region

You are absolutely correct. When I was in school at UW I would just drive to and from Toronto because, depending on the traffic, the bus could take 1.5 hrs or 3. Most of my friends and people I knew would drive or catch a ride with someone, simply because taking GO to Square 1 or Greyhound wasn't THAT much better than just driving. You'd still be stuck in the same traffic and the bus would often be at the mercy of whether there were any problems on the road or not. I'm not saying that GO train will be faster or that it won't experience delays, but I believe that the GO Train would be able to keep a higher standard for on-time performance. If there was a solid, reliable way to get to and from KW that had the same travel time regardless of hour, I think this could really take a whack of cars off the road between KW/Toronto. This, ofcourse, is just one demographic, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a bunch more people use the service, especially if we see trains that go from Toronto to KW in the mornings and vice-versa in the afternoon. Add in the fact that it stops in Guelph and you've got another whack of people as well.

 

[BMO]

As far as I understand, the hub property will be used for construction staging for the King Street underpass and probably some LRT construction itself. There are still studies underway on the transit hub, which I believe are ultimately leading to some kind of public-private RFP process for developing the site as a mixed-use property, possibly in phases.

This makes sense, I always forget that the tracks and roadway are being grade separated as a per-cursor to the mobility hub. It would be more difficult to do the grade separation and LRT tracks with the mobility hub in place i'd imagine.