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Perhaps our built form is symbolic of where Toronto stands: in places it can have such cosmopolitan swagger, but a block or even a building away can feel so tawdry and Potemkin.

You're gonna love what happens when our Avenues are Avenueized, then...haha. Urban veneers on suburban teeth.

Perhaps I wasn't clear regarding the planning process comment. I don't laud NYC or Chicago's corrupt planners. What I laud are the results. And they are impressive.

What's impressive about a place like Chicago is how they gussy up parts of the city and *completely* ignore other parts. Yes, the nice parts are nice, but the neglected parts are truly necrotic...go about two blocks south of the Sears Tower and you reach wasteland, a Dubaian contrast. Does Toronto have even a single block of necrotic urban flesh (or empty lot, or boarded up house) that doesn't already have a "register now, from the low 200s" sign flashing passersby? Chicago's sprawl is also arguably the worst in America (it's the birthplace of the skyscraper, after all, you'd think that'd count for something or that they'd know better).
 
scarbs, any pics of that chitown neglect?
 
I have video, lots of it too. I got lost in South Chicago and trust me, it was not anything, we in Toronto, can relate to. I kept my camera rolling while my boyfriend tried to find the highway. ( For 2 hours lol)
 
My quick thoughts:

I think a lot of Toronto's civic dysfunction comes from the fact that there's a large chunk of the city--basically anyone over 50--who are no longer living in the place they signed up for or grew up in. That's true of the Rob Ford demographic, who remember Toronto (or more likely Etobicoke, or North York, etc) as this sort of ur-Mayberry, where everything worked and the government's mandate was to keep the taxes low and build an occasional subway line. Amalgamation didn't help this.

Just as importantly, however, it's true of much of the downtown left, too. I'll call it the Jack Layton demographic, whose concern is primarily about keeping their own little corner of Riverdale or the Annex precisely as it was when they moved there from Lethbridge or Sudbury or Detroit. This ideology becomes--as Mark Kingwell astutely observed--about saying 'no' to things, whether right or wrong. The Jack Layton Toronto is a sort of idealized urban village, where no buildings are over four storeys and a streetcar should be transit enough for anybody.

Problem is, stuff changes fast in TO--much faster than attitudes can catch up. For proof, look at Mustapha's historic photo thread. I find myself constantly thinking that an old photo must be a century or more old, and then looking at the label to see "1924" or "1935." Hell, look at photos of Bloor St in the 50s! The city's transformation has got to have been one of the fastest in history.

Some people have been able to make the adjustment, and embrace the fact that they now live in big, important, international city, but many haven't. This breeds incredible resentment and ill-will on both sides of the aisle, and inasmuch as the people who don't "get it" still have political influence (and they do!) they will be huge barriers to progress.

Good news is, anyone who moves to or grows up in Toronto now knows exactly what they are bargaining for. I think these growing pains will go away down the road.
 
Well I do agree 1000% Miller sucks and is in bed with the unions.

Imo it is our own self loathing, the fact that people outside Toronto think were swimming around and cash but then say it is full of hobo's and hippies and the unions that are hurting this city.

Imo we have to get tough on panhandlers who do nothing apart from harassing people and scarring them away from ever coming back. The streets need to be cleaned more often (I mean our main streets)...

Plus NY is still a urban cesspool south of 34th street.

right on!!!...the amount of money is spent trying to clean it up why not go after the source of the problem...taggers and those who throw trash on the ground instead of hiring a army of cleaners trying to catch up to the mess,hire them to go after the offenders.City hall is a waste land of little kids arguing over any issue that is not part of the "party line".Miller is socialist media whore who has no clue how to fix the city problems without throwing millions of taxpayers money at it.I vote for Minnan Wong if he runs for mayor.
 
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I just find it superbly ironic that someone who can't even type properly on an Internet forum should lecture us on the "little kids". I suppose it's reflective of the populace at large?

AoD
 
All I can say is that we have it really good in the GTA. Toronto is an amazing city, and you really do have to visit other cities to see that.
We have everything you could ever want in a city. Sure winter sucks, but I'd rather be in a Toronto winter than a Winnipeg or Edmonton winter!
 
I find it kind of funny that people like to rage against Miller so much when he really doesn't even have that much political power in this city. And it's the lack of power that the mayor holds that I think really holds Toronto back.

We're a bigger population centre than half the provinces in this country, and yet our elected officials don't even have final say in whether a developer gets permission to build downtown. Despite being a hell of a lot of taxes to the province (and the feds), we're stuck waiting around for years (sometimes decades) for a premier to decide he wants to give Toronto some transit funding.

It's a broken formula. Amalgamation didn't help any, as the needs of someone living in Liberty Village are far removed from someone living in a five bedroom house with a yard in Etobicoke. How do you rationalize that in policy? Going one way will just piss off the other.

Politically, I'd advocate for a "strong mayor" system, similar to the way they're run in the states. And I know that can lead to corruption (see: Chicago), but there are ways to mitigate that. Also: we need political parties at a municipal level. We need politicians who are beholden to some sort of long-term platform beyond "let's just keep getting me elected until I retire." Lastly, the provinces and the feds need to start recognizing the growing importance of cities in Canada - an importance that will only increase as we move away from being a resource-based economy -- and fund them.
 
... the lack of 'european style' coffee shops on every corner...

I assume the people that say things like that are not very well travelled or never leave the touristy locations.

Coffee is a great example of this. You can count the number of "european style" coffee shops in Frankfurt on a single hand and the few that exist are in the areas that locals simply don't go -- tourists only.


Anything deemed European Style will have a large European city which does not adhere to it, particularly when you start looking at all of Europe and not just Western Europe.
 
having lived in Vancouver for 3 years back in the 90s (and i'm assumed things are still the same), there it's the total opposite, people are so enamored of the place despite it being, in my opinion, a pretty mediocre place to live (although a fantastic place to visit for a week).

People think Robson street is some international shopping mecca, where the reality is it's a couple of blocks of suburban mall stores with the odd interesting specialty store. The place has little nightlife, the entire city closes down at about 9pm. Levels of crime, particularly property crime, are far higher than Toronto and having your car or residence broken into is way more commonplace than here. Plus, people gush about skiing, kayaking, hiking etc but when you ask them when the last time was that they actually did any of those things it turns out to years ago.

and you think people in Toronto hate Toronto! I dare you to go to Vancouver and tell people you're from here, or Ontario at the very least
 
Mystic Point's really making it easy to refute his points. The subway deserted? lol!

Whoaccio, I see your point, we're never going to have the urban fabric of the medieval streets of Europe, for example. But there are lots of comparisons to Europe that are perfectly valid, especially with things that are common there but not in North America. A lot of these things could work very well in a city like Toronto. Saying sound-bitey things like "Toronto isn't Europe" says nothing about how well a woonerf, or later bar hours, or roundabouts or high speed rail would work in Toronto. And since our culture's roots go back to Europe, it makes sense that it's the first overseas place to look for ideas.

But it's not like we're limiting our thinking to Europe. The thousands of high rises all over Toronto are a more Asian concept than European or even North American.
 
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I have video, lots of it too. I got lost in South Chicago and trust me, it was not anything, we in Toronto, can relate to. I kept my camera rolling while my boyfriend tried to find the highway. ( For 2 hours lol)

Is there any way you could upload a few of them for us to see?

Thanks!
 
What I also find hilarious is that David Miller, tarred as a 'socialist' by thousands of comment-board mouth-breathers, is probably the most pro-development, pro-business mayor Toronto has had for forty years.

Further to my earlier points, I think one of the reasons Miller does inspire such foaming of the face among so many is that (idiotic Transit City aside) he sort of transcends Toronto's 'two solitudes.' He's from one of the hubs of Laytonesque leftydom and has the NDP credentials to prove it, but as noted above is staunchly corporate-friendly. He is passionate about Toronto as a metropolis and as a centre of culture and innovation. I don't think anyone can accuse him of being small minded, and the relative expansiveness of his vision drives some folks nuts. Too bad for them. The city gets better every year, and I do think that on some level we have to give the municipal government credit for that.

One other thing for which I admire Miller is his recognition that, if anything, Toronto suffers from too-much-consultation syndrome. The one thing that the Jack Laytons and Rob Fords of the city have in common is a profound fear of change, and a well-honed sense of how to use procedural tricks to block it. Every city has its NIMBYs, but ours are absolutely pathological. Take the Margaret Smith crowd: scream that streetcar lanes are going to take away roadspace for cars, have your concerns addressed by cuts in the width of the sidewalk, and then scream that pedestrians are being disadvantaged. That's Menendez-brothers stuff, and exploits the legacy of people like Jane Jacobs in a perverse way.

A lot of us are upset about the way that Transit City is being rammed through, but I think the history of planning in Toronto shows that that's the only way to get anything done, and Miller has figured this out.

One last point, regarding civic pride elsewhere in Canada. This goes to the point about Phoenix. I think self-regard is in some sense a function of aspirations. One thing that hasn't been often commented upon is how gracefully Montreal has settled into its second-city status. Apart from some Anglo backbiting, I don't get the sense that civic leaders or citizens there are anything but ecstatic to be among the Barcelonas and Melbournes and Munichs of the world. Montreal gave up on trying to be all things to all people a while ago, and as a result people are free to love it for what it is. Vancouver is even better off, having never had to fill such big shoes.

Due partly to our position as Canada's cultural and economic centre and partly due to our own genuine aspirations, we in Toronto don't have that luxury. That makes it painful when we fall short, and gives those from elsewhere with an axe to grind plenty of stones on which to do it.
 

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