[Hydrogen]

sorry I should use spell check to make you happy?.

That won't help with the lack of correct punctuation. Also, sentences begin with a capitalized letter. Just thought I'd mention that.

...the amount of money is spent trying to clean it up why not go after the source of the problem...taggers and those who throw trash on the ground instead of hiring a army of cleaners trying to catch up to the mess,hire them to go after the offenders.City hall is a waste land of little kids arguing over any issue that is not part of the "party line".Miller is socialist media whore who has no clue how to fix the city problems without throwing millions of taxpayers money at it.I vote for Minnan Wong if he runs for mayor.

Then there is the problem logic. Instead of an "army" of cleaners, you are suggesting an army of enforcement personnel to go after offenders. Would this be any less expensive? In the end, you'd still need the cleaners.

Maybe you can spell out what a "socialist media whore" is. Are you suggesting he gets paid to be in the news to espouse what you perceive to be socialist views? What is it that you are trying to communicate? Isn't the mayor (who was elected) supposed to be communicating with the citizens of the city?

As for Minnan-Wong, let's see if he runs for mayor. Somehow I have my doubts he would do something so daring.

 

[Tewder]

One last point, regarding civic pride elsewhere in Canada. This goes to the point about Phoenix. I think self-regard is in some sense a function of aspirations. One thing that hasn't been often commented upon is how gracefully Montreal has settled into its second-city status. Apart from some Anglo backbiting, I don't get the sense that civic leaders or citizens there are anything but ecstatic to be among the Barcelonas and Melbournes and Munichs of the world. Montreal gave up on trying to be all things to all people a while ago, and as a result people are free to love it for what it is. Vancouver is even better off, having never had to fill such big shoes.

Due partly to our position as Canada's cultural and economic centre and partly due to our own genuine aspirations, we in Toronto don't have that luxury. That makes it painful when we fall short, and gives those from elsewhere with an axe to grind plenty of stones on which to do it.

Great points!

Toronto seems to me to be somewhat inveterately self-loathing, and I think people outside of the city feed on this. Pre-war Toronto has been maligned as a constipated overly British and overly parochial backwater, and post-war Multicultural Toronto has been promoted as a balkanized olio of hyphenated citizens whose true heart and identity are perceived as residing 'elsewhere'. Gross generalizations to be sure, but a thread like this can only ever really be as such.

Cities are about people, first and foremost, as individuals but also as a collectivity. Toronto has the individual part in spades but sorely lacks any unifying uber identity that can foster a profound sense of pride of place. This is what you feel in NYC or London or San Fran or Montreal or Chicago etc. where even with large diverse populations of newcommers people still willingly assimilate into a commonality of identity that they came to be a part of.

 

[urbandreamer]

I often wonder if this hate-on for Toronto is propagated by descendants of (and current) immigrants that historically hated the British/Waspy ppl? Everytime I talk to someone, I "trick" them into telling the truth--aka, they secretly find the Brits "boring blah blah blah" due to historical events.

Just my 2 pennies.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

I often wonder if this hate-on for Toronto is propagated by descendants of (and current) immigrants that historically hated the British/Waspy ppl? Everytime I talk to someone, I "trick" them into telling the truth--aka, they secretly find the Brits "boring blah blah blah" due to historical events.
Just my 2 pennies.

"Leafs suck, HNIC shoves them down our throats, Cole & Neale are homers... boo, hiss"

At least, that's what I usually hear.

 

[Mystic Point]

Mystic Point's really making it easy to refute his points. The subway deserted? lol!

Whoaccio, I see your point, we're never going to have the urban fabric of the medieval streets of Europe, for example. But there are lots of comparisons to Europe that are perfectly valid, especially with things that are common there but not in North America. A lot of these things could work very well in a city like Toronto. Saying sound-bitey things like "Toronto isn't Europe" says nothing about how well a woonerf, or later bar hours, or roundabouts or high speed rail would work in Toronto. And since our culture's roots go back to Europe, it makes sense that it's the first overseas place to look for ideas.

But it's not like we're limiting our thinking to Europe. The thousands of high rises all over Toronto are a more Asian concept than European or even North American.

You've got the wrong Mystic Point. I never said anything about Europe or empty subways.

 

[Anth]

Still, this city is unique in the world in that it is skirting global Alpha city status but still has horrendous vestiges of provincial and stubbornheaded thinking that prevent it from making that final leap. I'll name just a few including the pigheaded attitude of the TTC, a city council system that is a monstrous union of the worst examples of right and left wing pettiness and our seeming inability to market ourselves beyond being a tacky knockoff of a Manhattan cliché. Perhaps our built form is symbolic of where Toronto stands: in places it can have such cosmopolitan swagger, but a block or even a building away can feel so tawdry and Potemkin.

I think a lot of Toronto's civic dysfunction comes from the fact that there's a large chunk of the city--basically anyone over 50--who are no longer living in the place they signed up for or grew up in. That's true of the Rob Ford demographic, who remember Toronto (or more likely Etobicoke, or North York, etc) as this sort of ur-Mayberry, where everything worked and the government's mandate was to keep the taxes low and build an occasional subway line. Amalgamation didn't help this.

Just as importantly, however, it's true of much of the downtown left, too. I'll call it the Jack Layton demographic, whose concern is primarily about keeping their own little corner of Riverdale or the Annex precisely as it was when they moved there from Lethbridge or Sudbury or Detroit. This ideology becomes--as Mark Kingwell astutely observed--about saying 'no' to things, whether right or wrong. The Jack Layton Toronto is a sort of idealized urban village, where no buildings are over four storeys and a streetcar should be transit enough for anybody.

I had the urge to quote these for the sheer amount of succinct truth in them. A bit disheartening, but beautiful nonetheless and cause for optimism. We really are just starting to grow out of our awkward adolescence.

 

[Torontovibe]

Is there any way you could upload a few of them for us to see?

Thanks!

Yes. I need to transfer it from VHS tape (Yes, I use VHS tapes lol) so it might take a bit of time. I can post it on Youtube and try to link it here. I have the best of Chicago and the worst. The contrast is interesting but depressing. Philadelphia is much the same. We are lucky because I have never seen those kind of disparity anywhere in Canada. I guess Vancouver comes closest (East Hastings) but it's not nearly as bad.
I'll get to work on that soon.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

i have a confession to make....


I HATE THE CITY OF TORONTO!........IN KANSAS.

 

[MisterF]

You've got the wrong Mystic Point. I never said anything about Europe or empty subways.

My point about Europe was a response to another forumer. Re: subways:

Witness the subways, Union Station, the decision to stick a suburban shopping mall downtown ( the Eaton Center ), Yonge Street, Bloor Street, Bay Street, Dundas Street, the Lake Shore, Ontario Place and most of the downtown city parks. All decaying, utterly forgettable and most abandoned.

 

[lordmandeep]

Toronto seems to me to be somewhat inveterately self-loathing, and I think people outside of the city feed on this. Pre-war Toronto has been maligned as a constipated overly British and overly parochial backwater, and post-war Multicultural Toronto has been promoted as a balkanized olio of hyphenated citizens whose true heart and identity are perceived as residing 'elsewhere'. Gross generalizations to be sure, but a thread like this can only ever really be as such.

true, I have heard people saw that people from Toronto aren't true Canadians.
Were either Americans or trying to be like Europe lol.


About Miller, I applaud and thank him for the great amount of development he has brought to the city and how he has helped the inner core of the city.


The problem is every other day he is on CP24 crying for more money, yet gives pay increase 2-3 times over inflation to the TTC and such. He is to comfy to the Unions and no doubt about the whole NDP-Union group have become far to powerful in this city and are hurting it tremendously. One side wants to create a utopia of the future ignoring the realities of today and the other side just wants to get payed more for no reason then greed.

I am no Rob-Ford supporter because he is an idiot on the other extreme.

I want some moderate tough governance at city hall, who should be above all this stupidity.

 

[Mr.Tang]

I think our self hatred is sort of part of what I like about Toronto. It is what drives the city to be relentlessly, self improving. A Montrealer once told me that best thing about Toronto is that it gets better ever year. I think there is some real truth to that.

 

[lordmandeep]

I think the downtown area and the area along the lake and the centre of the city from the lake up to steeles are the only area's improving, imo.

 

[Torontovibe]

If you guys read the North American threads on SSC you will see this kind of thing happens in every city. Whether it's Chicago, Miami, LA (especially LA lol) or even NYC, there are lots of people who hate their own cities and are constantly harping on what makes their city SUCK! It's not exclusive to Toronto.
I have a friend who hates Montreal and always talks about leaving but I've known him for over 15 years, and although he claims to hate Montreal, he's still there. There are always gonna be people who are miserable, no matter where they live, and complaining is just a way of life for them. I say, just let people bitch and ignore them. Very few people have rational arguments anyway, when it comes to Toronto. I personally, think Toronto is the second best city in North America but I won't be happy until it's the best. (not expecting that in my lifetime lol)

 

[Dan416]

Miller's okay. The main thing about him I dislike is Transit City.

If the city had political parties I think it'd be much better. At first glance I thought bringing political parties into city hall would politicize things too much, but all the extreme viewpoints just clashing don't do any good in Toronto at least.

At least if we had political parties, we'd have Liberals in power, and they would listen to the unions, but they wouldn't be beholden to them. They'd build subways and LRTs, but they'd build them in the right places. They'd allow supertalls where they belong, downtown. To me, Liberals are more pragmatic than ideological Conservatives and New Democrats.

That said there have been some really great comments in this thread.

 

[unimaginative2]

For people who are hostile to the idea of political parties at City Hall, remember that the NDP does operate a semi-official caucus with regular meetings and co-ordinated policies and campaigns.