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My fiancee, who is Ojibwe, says they refer to themselves as 'Indians'. She said only white people, scared of not being politically correct, use the myriad other terms. I'm guilty too...

:D

But then what about those people from, you know, India, who should have some claim to that term since it's rooted in thousands of years of history.... If there's one opinion on naming conventions I have, it's that no indigenous people should ever be called Indians. It's just so obviously incorrect and needlessly confusing.....
 
In Canada, one cannot criticize immigration without being called a racist.

Did you have any objection to an actual post made here or are you just trying to show off how cool and anti-PC you are?

As far as I can tell, I made a complaint about immigration earlier and yet no one has called me a racist.

I think there may be something to that, no?
 
It's not a matter of being racist. We are living in a victim society. If someone is basically a loser, they are looking for someone else to blame (and perhaps sue!)
I saw a documentary a number of years back about Cleveland, Cincinnati or one of those other 'rust belt' cities and how it had transformed itself from a wasteland to a prospering city. The deputy-Mayor was black - and female. Her remarks were enlightening, to say the least. She lamented how so many black people sat back, blaming society, the whites, lack of opportunity - anything, for their own personal poor performance. Fine. She is 'allowed' to say that since she is also black. It was her final remark that really made me think: she pointed out that no group of people have been more ostracized, more persecuted or more terrorized throughout history than the Jews, yet you don't see them bottom feeding in society. They don't lay around blaming other people for their hardships. They get off their asses and DO something. I wasn't sure what shocked me more: the fact that she had the nerve to say that, or the fact that the documentary chose to air it.

Even the esteemed Robert Mugabe (sarcasm intended) thanked the British for their language, their schools and their infrastructure. It is all boo-hoo and such that we North Americans enslaved generations of Africans and dragged them here against their will. Well, get over it, I say. Be thankful you are here on these shores and have any opportunity to better yourselves. Things could be far worse: you could be festering in a grass hut, playing with camel dung along with a few hundred million of your distant cousins in Africa.

Okay, perhaps that IS a tad harsh, but when faced with challenges and adversity there are two choices: sink or swim. Or perhaps a third: drag those around down to your level.

We have to stop apologizing for the past (both literally and figuratively), and just get on with making this the best damned country in the world. The tools are here. We have the resources, but do we have the will?

It's just our luck that Canada had to be colonized just as the British started to develop a conscience! The Spanish and Portuguese knew how to deal with conquered peoples. First, the British left us with a mess in New France, then they left a mess with the hodge-podge of half-treaties they signed all over British North America. Three hundred years later and we are still cleaning up that legacy.

Where does it all end? We are never going to build a vital, healthy nation if we are constantly looking backward, if we are continually revising history and bending over backwards to appease those who may have been slighted. Every interest group on the planet is going to bankrupt the public purse. The aboriginals did this, the Chinese did that, the French were here first - GAD!

Fact: 1. By any measure, every successful modern nation state on the
planet has a direct lineage from Great Britain's dynasty.
2. Separation of church and state is paramount to this.
3. Virtually every single invention worth mentioning was created,
invented or popularized by one of a handful of European nations,
or their colonial offshoots (Canada, the U.S.)
4. Nations that were or are xenophobic are failed states.

We MUST stop apologizing for what our great, great grandparents did, acknowledge the fact that this IS the best country to live in and demand that newcomers learn our way of living. What they do in their own homes is their own business, but if their country was better then why are they here?

A friend of mine once said that Americans should have the right to bear arms that were readily available in the 1790's when the Second Amendment was debated. Funny, but profound. I would add that if the First Nations peoples really want 'their' land back, then they have to hand back electricity, snowmobiles, guns, television, anti-biotics and other examples of white man's tyranny.

Sound ridiculous? Well then so does the state of perpetual blackmail that Ottawa and the Provinces are in over supposed treaties that were written 150+ years ago. If the Aboriginals and immigrants who come here looking for a better life don't learn to get along and help everyone make this a better place to live in, then eventually we will all be dragged down to their level.

We cannot live in a 3, 4, 5, 18 tier society. We are either in this together or we are not. I don't want to live in another Czechoslovakia or Belgium!
 
It is all boo-hoo and such that we North Americans enslaved generations of Africans and dragged them here against their will. Well, get over it, I say. Be thankful you are here on these shores and have any opportunity to better yourselves. Things could be far worse: you could be festering in a grass hut, playing with camel dung along with a few hundred million of your distant cousins in Africa.

Yikes. Grandmaster Beez has a new recruit.

Were you one of Lastman's advisors when Toronto was bidding for the 2008 Olympics?
 
But then what about those people from, you know, India, who should have some claim to that term since it's rooted in thousands of years of history.... If there's one opinion on naming conventions I have, it's that no indigenous people should ever be called Indians. It's just so obviously incorrect and needlessly confusing.....

Hey, I understand the dilemma and can't use the term 'Indian' for that very purpose (I say 'Native'), but don't you think that the community should be able to decide how they would like to be referred to?
 
Even the esteemed Robert Mugabe (sarcasm intended) thanked the British for their language, their schools and their infrastructure. It is all boo-hoo and such that we North Americans enslaved generations of Africans and dragged them here against their will. Well, get over it, I say. Be thankful you are here on these shores and have any opportunity to better yourselves. Things could be far worse: you could be festering in a grass hut, playing with camel dung along with a few hundred million of your distant cousins in Africa.

Would that not be preferable? Is there something inherently bad about indigenous tribal society? Sure, Africa is (mostly) a mess these days, but that's entirely to do with a long history of colonialism, drugs, and corruption. All of which sprang forward when boats starting hitting their beaches.

It's just our luck that Canada had to be colonized just as the British started to develop a conscience! The Spanish and Portuguese knew how to deal with conquered peoples. First, the British left us with a mess in New France, then they left a mess with the hodge-podge of half-treaties they signed all over British North America. Three hundred years later and we are still cleaning up that legacy.

As most Spanish and Portuguese colonies were located in the Caribbean and South America, I think it'd be kind of difficult to argue that Spain and Portugal were all that successful at dealing with 'conquered people'.

Fact: 1. By any measure, every successful modern nation state on the planet has a direct lineage from Great Britain's dynasty.

This statement is so vague I guess you can twist it into truth, but it's pretty intellectually dishonest. I'd offer Japan, Saudi Arabia, Scandinavia, Greece, Russia, Egypt, etc.

2. Separation of church and state is paramount to this.

I think separation of church is state is incredibly important to modern government, but historically? There's no such thing as secular colonialism, dude.

3. Virtually every single invention worth mentioning was created,
invented or popularized by one of a handful of European nations,
or their colonial offshoots (Canada, the U.S.)

Way, way off. Here are some examples: Irrigation, Beer, the plough, silk, cement, the noodle, the compass, gunpowder, porcelain, inoculation, the pharmacy, the paper mill, eye glasses, the university, coffee, Anastasia, the abacus, the toothbrush, the steam turbine, the mechanical clock, and so on.

Europe had a "Dark Ages" for almost 1,000 years. Most early invention happened in China or the Middle East -- ever consider why we use 'Arabic' numbers?


We MUST stop apologizing for what our great, great grandparents did, acknowledge the fact that this IS the best country to live in and demand that newcomers learn our way of living. What they do in their own homes is their own business, but if their country was better then why are they here?

Our way of living is vague and undefined, and ever-evolving. We should -- and do; have you seen the 'test' for newcomers? --ask for societal integration, but a monoculture never did anything good for anyone.

Sound ridiculous? Well then so does the state of perpetual blackmail that Ottawa and the Provinces are in over supposed treaties that were written 150+ years ago. If the Aboriginals and immigrants who come here looking for a better life don't learn to get along and help everyone make this a better place to live in, then eventually we will all be dragged down to their level.

You're more than a little bit racist.
 
Would that not be preferable? Is there something inherently bad about indigenous tribal society? Sure, Africa is (mostly) a mess these days, but that's entirely to do with a long history of colonialism, drugs, and corruption. All of which sprang forward when boats starting hitting their beaches.

Whether 'tribalism' was or is 'successful' is debatable. The fact is that the European powers (and the Ottoman Empire) were bound to interfere. That is the way things were done back then. Competition. Evolution. It's all the natural order. Things are truly a mess. Darfur, anyone? However, a lot of 'tribes' gladly handed over their enemies to the Spanish and Portugese slave traders. Let's not paint a revisionist history of the slave trade.
I guess if the Africans had ZERO exposure to the modern world they would be relatively happy. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. The true root of all evil is the television because now even the poorest of them can see what they are missing (or what they think they are missing.)


As most Spanish and Portuguese colonies were located in the Caribbean and South America, I think it'd be kind of difficult to argue that Spain and Portugal were all that successful at dealing with 'conquered people'.

They wiped them out! That's much easier than making reservations for them. Even the Americans 'dealt' with most of their problem. We can shed tears for what happened, but the fact is you and I were no alive, nor were any of the 'victims.' How far back in history must we go with grievances? The Druids?


This statement is so vague I guess you can twist it into truth, but it's pretty intellectually dishonest. I'd offer Japan, Saudi Arabia, Scandinavia, Greece, Russia, Egypt, etc.

What has Araby done in the past 5-600 years? It's more the shame that the Tigris/Eurphrates were the cradle of civilization. Look what they could have accomplished. When Marco Polo made his rounds, China was far in advance of Europe. Let's explore why both those cultures imploded for clues so that it doesn't happen to us. Japan was culturally rich but very backward until Captain Perry showed them how behind the times they were! Last time I looked, Scandinavia and Greece were in Europe, so is Russia (although I'd hardly hold them up as a 'successful' state these days.) Is there another new map? Egypt? Perhaps 2,500 years ago, not now.

I think separation of church is state is incredibly important to modern government, but historically? There's no such thing as secular colonialism, dude.

Colonialism is a modern term, dude. They used to call it conquest. The fact that the Pope, or by extension the crown's of Europe, had to approve of said conquests was a fact of life then. England was well into its secular throes by the time Canada began to grow.

Way, way off. Here are some examples: Irrigation, Beer, the plough, silk, cement, the noodle, the compass, gunpowder, porcelain, inoculation, the pharmacy, the paper mill, eye glasses, the university, coffee, Anastasia, the abacus, the toothbrush, the steam turbine, the mechanical clock, and so on.

??? You're just confused. The steam turbine was British. Gunpowder: Chinese. Compass? Cement? 90% of the inventions are from Europe or their 'colonies.' I suggest you look it up. From the lowly zipper to the most important creation of all (the printing press): Europe or its former colonies.

Europe had a "Dark Ages" for almost 1,000 years. Most every invention happened in China or the Middle East -- ever consider why we use 'Arabic' numbers?

Yes, yes. But it is the Middle East and China that entered their 'dark ages' just as Europe was emerging. We can all debate the Church's role in that - just ask Copernicus.




Our way of living is vague and undefined, and ever-evolving. We should -- and do; have you seen the 'test' for newcomers? --ask for societal integration, but a monoculture never did anything good for anyone.

Agreed.


You're more than a little bit racist.

At last: the period at the end of the sentence. The banner cry!

I rest my case.
 
Dichotodummy said:
They wiped them out! That's much easier than making reservations for them. Even the Americans 'dealt' with most of their problem. We can shed tears for what happened, but the fact is you and I were no alive, nor were any of the 'victims.' How far back in history must we go with grievances? The Druids?
The Druids? There are still surviving members of the residential school system in Canada. The Canadian government still exists. Aboriginal living conditions remain at third world standards. How many living druids can you find nowadays? Is there a Roman Empire left to apologize?

(The answer to the last two questions is no, FYI)

And what exactly are you saying here? That you would not have wiped out the aboriginals yourself, but would have preferred if your grandpappy had? Jee, you have an affection for genocide and yet you still wonder when people call you "racist".

What has Araby done in the past 5-600 years? It's more the shame that the Tigris/Eurphrates were the cradle of civilization. Look what they could have accomplished. When Marco Polo made his rounds, China was far in advance of Europe. Let's explore why both those cultures imploded for clues so that it doesn't happen to us. Japan was culturally rich but very backward until Captain Perry showed them how behind the times they were! Last time I looked, Scandinavia and Greece were in Europe, so is Russia (although I'd hardly hold them up as a 'successful' state these days.) Is there another new map? Egypt? Perhaps 2,500 years ago, not now.
You don't even know what you posted. You stated:
Fact: 1. By any measure, every successful modern nation state on the planet has a direct lineage from Great Britain's dynasty.
.

Let's explore why both those cultures imploded for clues so that it doesn't happen to us.
What exactly does this mean? What do you think historians have been doing for the past few hundreds of years? Get off your ass and read a history book.
You're just confused. The steam turbine was British. Gunpowder: Chinese. Compass? Cement? 90% of the inventions are from Europe or their 'colonies.' I suggest you look it up. From the lowly zipper to the most important creation of all (the printing press): Europe or its former colonies.
Many major inventions have had their origins in various countries, often being developed concurrently or with the success of one inventor beings used as the base for another. The steam turbine, compass, cement, etc. all have origins outside of Europe. But even if you were right, how does this support your argument? Restriction to the free movement of people wasn't the driving force behind European inventions. Neither was cultural conservatism. This topic barely even relates to immigration, yet here we are discussing it thanks to you. All we need now is an inane anecdote about your Brazillian partner, and you'll have succeeded in derailing another thread on UT.
 
theman23 pretty well said exactly what I was going to say. Spain and Portugal clearly did not reap the benefits of 'wiping out' the populations in their colonies, as those former colonies are generally, with exceptions, still in the grips of poverty and unrest. The steam turbine was invented, in its early phases, in Egypt. China is not in Europe nor is it a colony of Britain (nor were the Scandinavian countries, Greece or Russia). All of the items I listed where invented either in China, the Middle East or Africa. Giving the British credit for Japan is insane. Measuring all cultures on earth against the British, with the British subjectively deemed 'the best', is of course going to make Britain and its colonies look advanced. You're a racist, but not in a modern-day sense; you're straight out of a Kipling novel, yammering on about the 'noble savage'. It's kind of awesome in a twisted way. We are way off topic.
 
theman23 pretty well said exactly what I was going to say. Spain and Portugal clearly did not reap the benefits of 'wiping out' the populations in their colonies, as those former colonies are generally, with exceptions, still in the grips of poverty and unrest. The steam turbine was invented, in its early phases, in Egypt. China is not in Europe nor is it a colony of Britain (nor were the Scandinavian countries, Greece or Russia). All of the items I listed where invented either in China, the Middle East or Africa. Giving the British credit for Japan is insane. Measuring all cultures on earth against the British, with the British subjectively deemed 'the best', is of course going to make Britain and its colonies look advanced. You're a racist, but not in a modern-day sense; you're straight out of a Kipling novel, yammering on about the 'noble savage'. It's kind of awesome in a twisted way. We are way off topic.

Well, Dichotomy's partner is a "noble savage". He's broken-English crotch candy. I'll betcha there's tensions in that relationship...
 
Whether 'tribalism' was or is 'successful' is debatable. The fact is that the European powers (and the Ottoman Empire) were bound to interfere. That is the way things were done back then. Competition. Evolution. It's all the natural order. Things are truly a mess. Darfur, anyone? However, a lot of 'tribes' gladly handed over their enemies to the Spanish and Portugese slave traders. Let's not paint a revisionist history of the slave trade.

I guess if the Africans had ZERO exposure to the modern world they would be relatively happy. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. The true root of all evil is the television because now even the poorest of them can see what they are missing (or what they think they are missing.)

It's amazing to think such ignorant, racist views can exist in the 21st century.

Africa was not just a collection of antiquated tribes. There were actually some pretty sophisticated and wealthy civilizations there. Art and technology was more advanced than it was in Europe for quite a while.

The idea that Africa was a primitive continent with "savages" was created by Europeans in part to help justify the slave trade. The reality is that Europe and Africa had been trading for centuries; blacks were not some new discovery. They had a rich and advanced culture.
 
It's amazing to think such ignorant, racist views can exist in the 21st century.

Africa was not just a collection of antiquated tribes. There were actually some pretty sophisticated and wealthy civilizations there. Art and technology was more advanced than it was in Europe for quite a while.

The idea that Africa was a primitive continent with "savages" was created by Europeans in part to help justify the slave trade. The reality is that Europe and Africa had been trading for centuries; blacks were not some new discovery. They had a rich and advanced culture.

I wouldn't overestimate its historic advancements... Egypt certainly comes to mind and the ancient Egyptian culture was highly advanced for its day.

But the continent as a whole has certainly had its challenges. Its not quite as rosy a history as you portray.
 
I wouldn't overestimate its historic advancements... Egypt certainly comes to mind and the ancient Egyptian culture was highly advanced for its day.

But the continent as a whole has certainly had its challenges. Its not quite as rosy a history as you portray.

The same can be said for any continent. I don't think it's possible at this point to overestimate the state of Africa before slavery. Most people just assume it was very primitive and very unsophisticated.

Africa's current state can be attributed in large part to the effects of slavery and colonialism. The continent, as a whole, is still recovering.

I'm not saying Africa was perfect, but Dichotomy's idea that it was some 3rd world hellhole isn't really accurate.
 

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