[reaperexpress]

I don't think they are allowed to create anonymous attack accounts and post endless diatribes about how poor transit is in York Region on multiple forums. You should have a talk with them about this ...

(my point was the complaining about it here ... ).

Haha, fair enough.

 

[Rainforest]

... and how much more property taxes are out in the suburbs (which is no surprise, because of the inefficiency of delivering services to less dense areas) ...

Based on my observations, property taxes per average family are higher in Toronto than in 905. The mill rate in 416 is lower, but the much higher property prices that mill rate applies to result in higher tax bills.

Efficiency of the services is a complex concept. I suppose it costs more per resident to provide water, gas, and electricity in 905. On the other hand, the cost of police services per resident must be much higher in Toronto.

Transit subsidy per resident is certainly much higher in Toronto than anywhere in 905. TTC boasts a very high cost recovery ratio, which mean low subsidy per transit rider. However, the share of transit riders in 905 is much lower than in Toronto, hence the subsidy per resident is lower in 905.

 

[wopchop]

And cheaper? Given how much bigger they are, and how much more property taxes are out in the suburbs (which is no surprise, because of the inefficiency of delivering services to less dense areas), and the need to have cars - often more than one!

I get what you are saying, and mostly agree (services, commuting savings, and car savings are all some reasons why I bought in Toronto), but most people don't have that luxury of choice. They are pre-approved to mortgage a certain amount of money for a home, and that dictates what they can buy. For many, they simply will not be approved to mortgage the money necessary to buy a Toronto home.

 

[doady]

York Region Transit has less than half the per capita transit ridership that Brampton and Mississauga have. YRT actually provides less service hours annually than MT even though the population is much higher. So I don't see how it is unreasonable for York Region residents to expect better. Obviously there is some room for improvement in terms of the amount of service. Maybe the fares should be less crazy too.

 

[TOareaFan]

Based on my observations, property taxes per average family are higher in Toronto than in 905. The mill rate in 416 is lower, but the much higher property prices that mill rate applies to result in higher tax bills.

Efficiency of the services is a complex concept. I suppose it costs more per resident to provide water, gas, and electricity in 905. On the other hand, the cost of police services per resident must be much higher in Toronto.

Not that it matters but are those things included in other people's property taxes? They sure aren't in mine,

 

[Electrify]

Decided to take a look at Tridel's website. A two bedroom 1795 square feet condo in downtown Richmond Hill costs $795,000 and has $511/month in property tax. This leads to $442.90/square foot in property value, and $0.28/sqft/month in property taxes. This suggests an annual mill rate of about 0.77%.

A similar sized condo in downtown Toronto (300 Front) is a three bedroom 1817 square feet and costs $1,543,000 with $930/month in property tax. This comes to $849.20/square foot in property value, and $0.51/sqft/month in property taxes. This suggests an annual mill rate of about 0.72%.

Finally the closest costing condo in price in downtown Toronto (not including Aquavista, which is a little out of the way with limited amenities at the moment) was Alter at Church and Carlton. It is a one bedroom 906 square feet unit at $710,000 and $428/month in property tax. This leads to a $783.66/sqft in property value, and $0.47/sqft/month in property taxes. This suggests an annual mill rate of about 0.72%.

Keep in mind that Richmond Hill is somewhat more dense and compact than many other 905 suburbs. Still, I am surprised that our taxes are not that much higher than Toronto's. Likely either Toronto is overcharging their mill rate, or Richmond Hill is under charging.

Source: http://www.tridel.com/more-tridel-condos

 

[nfitz]

Based on my observations, property taxes per average family are higher in Toronto than in 905. The mill rate in 416 is lower, but the much higher property prices that mill rate applies to result in higher tax bills.

I look at the $2,100 or so in municipal property tax I pay on an almost average-priced single detached house in Toronto, and I have a hard time finding a better deal in 905, unless you are in some very rural serviceless township somewhere.

Efficiency of the services is a complex concept. I suppose it costs more per resident to provide water, gas, and electricity in 905. On the other hand, the cost of police services per resident must be much higher in Toronto.

Higher, sure. Policing costs are mostly salaries, and it's no secret that Toronto has a bit more police than 905. In 2012 Toronto has 203 officers per 100,000 population compared to 147 for Peel and 136 for York (though lower than the 227 for Montreal, 226 for Halifax, 213 for Winnipeg). So that cost is a bit higher. Many others are lower, and Toronto does have a huge commercial tax base than York and Peel don't have.

Transit subsidy per resident is certainly much higher in Toronto than anywhere in 905. TTC boasts a very high cost recovery ratio, which mean low subsidy per transit rider. However, the share of transit riders in 905 is much lower than in Toronto, hence the subsidy per resident is lower in 905.

Toronto's transit subsidy per trip is so much lower than York or Mississauga, that I'm not sure it's as much a difference as you think. Hard to find hard numbers though ...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Based on my observations, property taxes per average family are higher in Toronto than in 905. The mill rate in 416 is lower, but the much higher property prices that mill rate applies to result in higher tax bills.

Efficiency of the services is a complex concept. I suppose it costs more per resident to provide water, gas, and electricity in 905. On the other hand, the cost of police services per resident must be much higher in Toronto.

Don't forget - we're talking about the farebox recovery RATIO. In terms of the ACTUAL cost of a transit ride, the subsidy is much higher in York Region. I used to know the exact numbers but can't remember now. But if a fare is $3.30 and that's only 40% of the fare, that means the entire fare [tries to do math] is something like $9? So each ride is subsidized nearly $6.

Toronto taxpayers, by contrast: the $3 TTC fare is 80% of the operating cost, right? [Again, math is not my strong suit!] So, taxpayers in 416 are only paying another 75-cents or something. So, rather HUGE difference, even if my math is off by a little bit....which it certainly could be.

The condo math above is interesting but any way you slice it, Toronto taxpayers pay WAY less in property taxes than 905ers. And that was the case even before the "Gravy Train" got stopped. Municipalities vary (e.g. Markham has had very low tax increases over the past decade) but the difference is still significant. I swear the MLS web site used to include property tax listings, and if you pulled up 2 homes with the same price in different areas you could see it starkly. Alas, I don't see it any more.

There all sorts of factors that go into things like utility rates too. Unlike Toronto or Peel or Durham, York Region doesn't have access to Lake Ontario, so they pay Toronto to pump the water up from there = higher water rates + more infrastructure to build.

 

[doady]

Although TTC has a much higher cost recovery ratio (73%), it is a much larger system too. So the average Toronto taxpayer actually subsidizes transit more than the average York taxpayer. YRT has around $80 million municipal subsidy for operations, TTC over $400 million. MiWay gets around $45 million from the city.

Honestly I don't think transit should be funded so much from the property taxes in the first place. I was reading an article on the Nassua Inter-County Express (formerly MTA Long Island Bus) and it mentioned how 40% of its operating revenue comes from fares (~$45 million) and 50% comes from the state (~$55 million). So the municipality (Nassau County) only has to provide a subsidy of $4.6 million USD per year. This is a system as large as YRT too (similar ridership, similar population, similar privately operated), but it gets 4 times the funding from higher level of government than YRT does...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Although TTC has a much higher cost recovery ratio (73%), it is a much larger system too. So the average Toronto taxpayer actually subsidizes transit more than the average York taxpayer. YRT has around $80 million municipal subsidy for operations, TTC over $400 million. MiWay gets around $45 million from the city.

Honestly I don't think transit should be funded so much from the property taxes in the first place. I was reading an article on the Nassua Inter-County Express (formerly MTA Long Island Bus) and it mentioned how 40% of its operating revenue comes from fares (~$45 million) and 50% comes from the state (~$55 million). So the municipality (Nassau County) only has to provide a subsidy of $4.6 million USD per year. This is a system as large as YRT too (similar ridership, similar population, similar privately operated), but it gets 4 times the funding from higher level of government than YRT does...

Good points; it's a bit of apples and oranges. York Region also spreads its subsidy over 1 million people and Toronto's over 2.5M; it's not a simple comparison.

Anyway, it's funny how people think a low recovery ratio is GOOD and some think it's bad. It's rididiculous trying to find our systems only on property taxes. So, some people talk about how good the TTC ratio is (because there is so little subsidy) but the obvious downside is that fare increases are the only way they can generate more funding and they overall have very little wiggle room. And, also TTC is in the position where the more people ride the system, the lower their margins are and they become victims of their own success.

There's a whole separate thread on funding,, I know, but you don't have to look at more than a couple of GTA systems to see why revenue tools are a necessity.

 

[doady]

TTC cost recovery ratio is the result of underfunding by the province. Before Mike Harris it was 60%. When the province eliminated its 50% operating subsidy, the TTC cut a massive amount of service to make up for that loss and the cost recovery suddenly became 80%. Service has improved since because some funding has returned, and the cost recovery fell to the current 73%, but TTC still has some crazy fares like $141 for a monthly pass (although the YRT fares overall are way more ridiculous).

Remember also that the TTC doesn't have time-based transfers like the 905 systems do. It also has no fare integration with neighbouring systems like the 905. So the fares aren't comparable to begin with, so to compare the cost recovery might not be fair.

 

[Electrify]

TTC cost recovery ratio is the result of underfunding by the province. Before Mike Harris it was 60%. When the province eliminated its 50% operating subsidy, the TTC cut a massive amount of service to make up for that loss and the cost recovery suddenly became 80%. Service has improved since because some funding has returned, and the cost recovery fell to the current 73%, but TTC still has some crazy fares like $141 for a monthly pass (although the YRT fares overall are way more ridiculous).

Remember also that the TTC doesn't have time-based transfers like the 905 systems do. It also has no fare integration with neighbouring systems like the 905. So the fares aren't comparable to begin with, so to compare the cost recovery might not be fair.

Not to mention that monthly passes have an absurd break even point, though this was also during periods of provincial funding and has more to do with TTC culture than anything else.

 

[taal]

This TAX conversation is COMPLETELY incorrect ... the prices in the 416 vs 905 are nearly the same, actually many 905 towns (e.g. Markham) have higher average property values then the entire 416.

You can't just site examples and forgot the rest of the city, taxes apply across to the entire city, and Toronto as some areas with very very cheap housing !

 

[Electrify]

This TAX conversation is COMPLETELY incorrect ... the prices in the 416 vs 905 are nearly the same, actually many 905 towns (e.g. Markham) have higher average property values then the entire 416.

You can't just site examples and forgot the rest of the city, taxes apply across to the entire city, and Toronto as some areas with very very cheap housing !

I just grabbed examples from downtown Richmond Hill and compared them to similar condos in downtown Toronto. The numbers are all on the page I linked to. That said, I am suspicious if the property tax assessment is correct. One of the supposed benefits of buying in downtown Toronto is that you are supposed to see a significant drop in property taxes, which these numbers suggest is not the case.

 

[taal]

I just grabbed examples from downtown Richmond Hill and compared them to similar condos in downtown Toronto. The numbers are all on the page I linked to. That said, I am suspicious if the property tax assessment is correct. One of the supposed benefits of buying in downtown Toronto is that you are supposed to see a significant drop in property taxes, which these numbers suggest is not the case.

Right from richmond hills own calculator:
http://www.richmondhill.ca/webforms/taxcalculator.asp

For 2014, 800,000K = 6831.87 = 569.3225 per month
So that's 0.85% a year

For Toronto it is 5,784.07 for the same 800K... 0.72%

This matches the rates ... why are factoring in square footage what does that have to do with anything, its purely based on property value.


BTW Richmondhill and Markham have the LOWEST residential property taxes in the 905 ... most of the others above 1%.