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canarob said:
There probably won't be a huge ridership increase initially, but population and employment growth alone will mean a steady increase.

I don't think the culture of those working in office parks near the 404, while obviously an important part of the equation, are the only factor when it comes to pedestrians in the area. There are a lot of us who actually live along Highway 7 as well and would like a walkable environment. Even now there are new condo building going up along near Bayview, Leslie, Warden, etc.,

I don't see why most of Highway 7 East can't eventually be more like Highway 7 further east around Markville, Markham Village, etc., where there are a decent number of pedestrians despite having lower densities and being car oriented.

Some of the plazas along Highway 7 will need to be redeveloped for this to happen, but I think it's a given eventually.
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I just don't think it'll happen !

Its really as simple as this, firstly this is now probably the widest street in the GTA ? Secondly, any development I suspect that will take place directly on Hi-way 7 will be in the form of mega projects ... think World On Yonge, or large office buildings complexes. These do nothing to contribute to walk-ability.

Maybe a couple of side streets off Hi-way 7 can benefit though.

I wouldn't count out the car culture as well, the majority of folks I know (and they are young) who live in the area love their cars, and wouldn't take transit ... mind you many don't mind the project, though they hate the construction, in the sense that they're happy the # of lanes remain and buses are taken off.


Anyway, that's fine, Markham can concrete on downtown Markham or the like. I just think it would have made more sense to save the money on the paving any apply it elsewhere (e.g. VCC / downtown Markham) ... granted maybe they'll just pay for it again in those areas ... we'll see..
 
I think the main goal of the busway is going to be to mitigate any increased traffic tension that will inevitably happen as the population in York Region continues to explode. So increased ridership will come by the naturally growing population numbers.

If Highway 7 stays as busy and congested as it was 3 years ago, even 5 years from now, then the busway is a resounding success. Given the rate of population increase, if they don't do something to make transit look attractive, you're just going to have a parking lot on your hands for 14 hours of every day.

That said, you work in the area but I live in the area. I once tried taking my bike on Highway 7 only to realize there wasn't even sidewalks for vast sections of it. Trust me, this is going to bring out all kinds of people and new developments that bring more pedestrian-focused developments to the street. When this thing is done, you won't find any more big box stores along this stretch. Storefronts will be designed to make it easy for pedestrians to walk in from the sidewalk. Just you watch.
 
xtremesniper said:
I think the main goal of the busway is going to be to mitigate any increased traffic tension that will inevitably happen as the population in York Region continues to explode. So increased ridership will come by the naturally growing population numbers.

If Highway 7 stays as busy and congested as it was 3 years ago, even 5 years from now, then the busway is a resounding success. Given the rate of population increase, if they don't do something to make transit look attractive, you're just going to have a parking lot on your hands for 14 hours of every day.

That said, you work in the area but I live in the area. I once tried taking my bike on Highway 7 only to realize there wasn't even sidewalks for vast sections of it. Trust me, this is going to bring out all kinds of people and new developments that bring more pedestrian-focused developments to the street. When this thing is done, you won't find any more big box stores along this stretch. Storefronts will be designed to make it easy for pedestrians to walk in from the sidewalk. Just you watch.
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I think when Downtown Markham is really up and running it will make a big difference as well. I can see a lot more people, especially young professionals, living there and working in one of the offices along Highway 7.

There are quite a few Planning & Engineering firms located along the Highway 7 corridor. I know that if I got a job with one of them, I'd be looking at Downtown Markham as my 1st area to look in, and that would be specifically because of the transit access to both the Highway 7 corridor and the GO network with Unionville not that far away.
 
xtremesniper said:
No, they truly did manage traffic exceptionally well. Maybe you're referring to the last two weeks where they've had no choice but to really restrict lanes to do their paving work, but up until now it has been handled very well.

They work well into the night (and often times 24/7) just to decrease impact during rush hours, and if you subscribe to the VivaNext email blasts, they send extremely regular emails notifying people of what work is coming up over the next few days, how it will impact the roads, and at what times and which lanes.

Every time anyone complains about the traffic on 7, I just roll my eyes. Just imagine how much of a mess the same project anywhere in the 416 would be.
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I work on Highway 7 so I commute along it daily, and I definitely agree. I'm pretty sure traffic is better than it was before construction started, with the obvious exception of those days they're paving so they divert traffic onto the busway.

Side-note: I thought there would be bike lanes? Or maybe they're not there yet because of lane alignment...
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Yes, the last step in construction is to paint bike lanes. The lanes will be shifted to the left into the space currently occupied by pylons between the rapidway and traffic lanes, freeing up space on the right side of the road.

taal said:
Ha ... you actually think ridership will increase significantly ? I'm betting not.

I work in the area / have many friends in the area, you need to understand the culture.
Having said that, the route is semi-well used rush hour, this may increase a little. I can bet you (and I'm willing to) off-peak ridership will remain dismal, bus lane or not.

That's just one side of the argument, I'm referring to the east side of Hi-way 7, the restaurants / malls in the area are 100% car oriented, and this won't do anything to change that unless they get demolished. This applies to the offices as well, but that's not a big deal, enough people (generally younger folks) do take transit.
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taal said:
I wouldn't count out the car culture as well, the majority of folks I know (and they are young) who live in the area love their cars, and wouldn't take transit ... mind you many don't mind the project, though they hate the construction, in the sense that they're happy the # of lanes remain and buses are taken off.
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While the busway won't make much difference in speed relative to before construction, the fact that they spared no expense is what is needed to attract suburbanites. As you correctly note, suburbanites are more predisposed to avoid transit, largely because our roads blatantly place cars at the top of the heirarchy of modes. But this project switches things around, visually making transit the default means of transport in the corridor. I remember when they introduced Viva buses in 2005, every one was impressed even though they still operated in mixed traffic. I have overheard people on Viva saying that they wouldn't ride YRT but they ride Viva. It's similar to the people in Toronto who ride the subway but not buses. I am certain they will be impressed again when the rapidways open and we'll see solid ridership during peak hours.

I know I will be riding the rapidway as soon as it opens. At the moment I tend to avoid the bus because it is so slow.

I agree that it will probably not initially result in much increase in off-peak ridership (it will make those buses slower than before unless they have effective transit priority*). However, the busway has spurred a construction boom in the area which will result in a much greater intensity and variety of land uses, many of which will be street oriented. That is what will result in a gradual increase in off-peak ridership.

*The project increased the number of traffic lights on Hwy7, and the protected left turns mean there is less green time for through traffic along Hwy7.
 
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taal said:
I just don't think it'll happen !

Its really as simple as this, firstly this is now probably the widest street in the GTA ? Secondly, any development I suspect that will take place directly on Hi-way 7 will be in the form of mega projects ... think World On Yonge, or large office buildings complexes. These do nothing to contribute to walk-ability.
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There's 2 types of walkability: European walkability and Hong Kong-style megaproject walkability.

The first one - the European version - is a complete pipe dream on Highway 7. Highway 7 won't ever have the walkability of Yonge and Lawrence, let alone Copenhagen.

The second one - where World on Yonge type megaprojects feed directly onto pedestrian overpasses that lead to transit stations, while 6 lane traffic rolls by unimpeded below - is doable. A lot of planners and urbanists find this to be inferior, but at the end of the day, the outcomes of the Hong Kong-style megaproject walkability are the same as those of the much more favoured European model: people walk to get to activities within the megacomplex and primarily rely on public transit for longer trips.
 
Hipster Duck said:
There's 2 types of walkability: European walkability and Hong Kong-style megaproject walkability.

The first one - the European version - is a complete pipe dream on Highway 7. Highway 7 won't ever have the walkability of Yonge and Lawrence, let alone Copenhagen.

The second one - where World on Yonge type megaprojects feed directly onto pedestrian overpasses that lead to transit stations, while 6 lane traffic rolls by unimpeded below - is doable. A lot of planners and urbanists find this to be inferior, but at the end of the day, the outcomes of the Hong Kong-style megaproject walkability are the same as those of the much more favoured European model: people walk to get to activities within the megacomplex and primarily rely on public transit for longer trips.
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Is it really even Hong Kong scale though? Some of the HK MTR developments are over 20k units, with hundreds of thousands of square feet of retail. I'm not sure if that's typical, in fairness.

Not even CityPlace is at that scale, and our transit development isn't anywhere nearly as tightly coordinated (will a subway ever reach World on Yonge? Or CityPlace? Who knows...)
 
Adjei said:
How is it that other cities are able to bury their hydro wires but we can't? Is it not also expensive for them?
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I guess we have to pay for arenas and all sorts of other stuff first? This is the story I was thinking of: About $10M/km to bury along Hwy. 7 and only so many pays to pay for them (you can't put the cost in DCs, which would be ideal).

http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/1436323-pay-to-bury-hydro-lines-markham-told/

As for the walkability, as said above, it's not going to be like Europe but it can be like North York Centre. If/when the nodes develop along the road - at VMC, in Markham and at Yonge, development will spread out from them. There are clear obstacles like the railyard and the highway stretch from Dufferin to Bayview, for sure, but less so to the east.

I think xtremesniper nailed the idea behind not just the rapidways but the entire Big Move: It's delusional to think we can have this population growth and really reduce commutes. But we need these projects just to hold the line in the face of population growth. The rapidways are a start of trying to something different in the suburbs...hopefully they'll work.
 
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diminutive said:
Is it really even Hong Kong scale though? Some of the HK MTR developments are over 20k units, with hundreds of thousands of square feet of retail. I'm not sure if that's typical, in fairness.

Not even CityPlace is at that scale, and our transit development isn't anywhere nearly as tightly coordinated (will a subway ever reach World on Yonge? Or CityPlace? Who knows...)
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I'm not implying that it's at the same scale and density as a HK megadevelopment. I'm implying that the style of walkable urbanity that's created is more in line with a HK style urbanism than the traditional midrises and sidewalk cafes version that's usually championed.
 
Can't it be somewhere in between? Plenty of places in Manhattan where skyscrapers are placed next to extra wide sidewalks with retail alongside.

That said, I think the main problem with the modernist HK style urbanism mentioned above is that it kills the activity on the street. The outdoor public space becomes vacant, unappealing, and even dangerous. It can work if there is such a high concentration of people that it keeps the realm from overcrowding (ex: Eaton's Centre, PATH, etc), but besides that it just kills urbanity. Even worse, is that if you want to reach a point outside of the mega development, but not far enough away by transit, then you have no choice but to walk or drive through this zone.

And yes, I did just finish reading The Death and Life of Great American Cities, in case you are wondering.

Even if you disregard these arguments as rubbish, I think it also boils down to the main fault of modernism: it assumes people are logical. Sure, on paper such planning looks perfect, but in reality we humans are finicky creatures. Ask yourself which is more appealing, Yonge St in downtown North York, or area immediately surrounding Scarborough Centre station (exclusively commercial to the north, residential and office to the south, and ironically very little access to cars).
 
I walked around a bit along the new stretch of road; the landscaping and detailing is well done and helps to mitigate some of the enormity of the 8 lane "highway". Some new blue street signs instead of the usual York Region green have also gone up:

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