[allengeorge]

And many don't. The point is that it's more nuanced than afransen's original claim of paternalism.

Afransen’s statement around paternalism had nothing to do with whether people liked moving here or not: it was about whether we had a right to tell them where and why to move.

It’s up to us to make rules about who comes here. It’s equally up to an (im)migrant about where and why they choose to move. Those are two distinct axes of action.

 

[allengeorge]

That's almost exactly the year Trudeau began the surge

Working in tech, I can absolutely tell you that the Canadian venture climate in tech was horrendous well before 2015. Almost all of my graduating class decamped for the States.

The tech culture/job scene here actually got better into the mid teens, mostly because skyrocketing wages in the US pushed some measure of nearshoring.

The tech job scene has nothing to do with immigration; Canadian venture capital is basically non-existent and highly risk averse and the market is far too small. Moreover, anecdotally, in Canada you build a startup to try sell it to a larger, better-capitalized American company. In the US you build your business to win. There is a massive attitudinal difference between American and Canadian companies.

In addition, I absolutely agree with @MrGoose on how housing has sucked capital away from businesses and into housing. Why bother building any sort of business if you can make consistent double-digit returns on land?

 

[Undead]

It’s equally up to an (im)migrant about where and why they choose to move.

With all due respect, this is nonsense. No one is entitled to come here just because they want to. As I've already said, we are not the world's charity. It's a fool's errand being a do-gooder charity for the world's poor out of a misplaced sense of guilt for our well-being.

Working in tech, I can absolutely tell you that the Canadian venture climate in tech was horrendous well before 2015. Almost all of my graduating class decamped for the States.

Venture maybe. Yes I know our venture scene was always weak. But I can also tell you my family members in tech haven't been out of a job in 20 years. Those on contract never had trouble landing new ones. This is tech workers in the banking sphere.

In the US you build your business to win. There is a massive attitudinal difference between American and Canadian companies.

I don't think this is the case anymore. We know Google et al hoover up small, highly innovative companies. And many startups gladly sell.

 

[allengeorge]

With all due respect, this is nonsense. No one is entitled to come here just because they want to. As I've already said, we are not the world's charity. It's a fool's errand being a do-gooder charity for the world's poor out of a misplaced sense of guilt for our well-being.

You have selectively quoted me. Let me repeat my statement in full:

It’s up to us to make rules about who comes here. It’s equally up to an (im)migrant about where and why they choose to move. Those are two distinct axes of action

At no point did I state that we should be obliged to act as an open door. It’s this kind of selective quoting and responsiveness that makes me think that people argue in bad faith.

I was responding to your misunderstanding of afransen’s statement. They too did not argue that we should accept everyone; simply that we could not tell people what choices to make in their life. Telling people to wait around for peace or food aid is paternalistic, and robs them of their autonomy. They can make the choices they want. We too can decide not to accept them.

 

[Northern Light]

You have selectively quoted me. Let me repeat my statement in full:


At no point did I state that we should be obliged to act as an open door. It’s this kind of selective quoting and responsiveness that makes me think that people argue in bad faith.

I was responding to your misunderstanding of afransen’s statement. They too did not argue that we should accept everyone; simply that we could not tell people what choices to make in their life. Telling people to wait around for peace or food aid is paternalistic, and robs them of their autonomy. They can make the choices they want. We too can decide not to accept them.

Perhaps we can we please take any further discussion of this out of the zoning thread before mods delete a whole slew of posts?

 

[allengeorge]

I agree: we should all disengage on this thread. I should not have continued the conversation here.

 

[christiesplits]

A new report by the Building Industry and Land Development Association (BILD) and Ontario Home Builders’ Association (OHBA) is calling for *surprise* more urban boundary expansion.

Provincial goal of building 1.5 million homes will not be realized without adequate land supply - BILDgta

Greater Toronto Area, December 11, 2023 — A new study by Malone Given Parsons Ltd. (MGP), commissioned for the Building Industry and Land Development Association (BILD) and the Ontario Home Builders’ Association (OHBA), identifies that there...Read More from Provincial goal of building 1.5...

www.bildgta.ca

 

[afransen]

Not zoning reform, strictly speaking, but building codes. On why Canada has the most restrictive laws regarding point access stairwells and why that has knock-on effects in terms of unit size, livability, cost and availability.

 

[allengeorge]

And on that note…

Ottawa to launch catalogue of home designs to speed up house-building process

Housing Minister Sean Fraser says the plan brings back a policy from the post-Second World War era to ease the construction of new homes

www.theglobeandmail.com

More focused on multiplexes and buildings for students and seniors.

 

[Northern Light]

Not zoning reform, strictly speaking, but building codes. On why Canada has the most restrictive laws regarding point access stairwells and why that has knock-on effects in terms of unit size, livability, cost and availability.

I think his point is a fair one, though, I might have an issue with providing only 1 elevator in a building. What if someone using a mobility aid lives above the ground floor? I'm ok w/entirely walk-up buildings, but the moment you make it possible and legal for someone w/mobility impairment to live off the ground, you need to answer the question "What happens when the elevator is broken or requires maintenance?"

I've seen this issue come up in buildings with 2 elevators, both out of service at the same time............so the risk with one elevator may be rather acute.

Obviously, as well, removing the 2nd staircase requirement needs to be paired with other regulation, such as mandating sprinklers or other fire suppression.

****

To me, a reasonable move would be immediately lifting the standard to 3 floors in the Federal Building Code (this would harmonize our rules with the U.S. which often carries weight w/officials in Ottawa), then examining under what circumstances one might be able to do so at 4 or 5 floors.

 

[afransen]

I think his point is a fair one, though, I might have an issue with providing only 1 elevator in a building. What if someone using a mobility aid lives above the ground floor? I'm ok w/entirely walk-up buildings, but the moment you make it possible and legal for someone w/mobility impairment to live off the ground, you need to answer the question "What happens when the elevator is broken or requires maintenance?"

I've seen this issue come up in buildings with 2 elevators, both out of service at the same time............so the risk with one elevator may be rather acute.

Obviously, as well, removing the 2nd staircase requirement needs to be paired with other regulation, such as mandating sprinklers or other fire suppression.

****

To me, a reasonable move would be immediately lifting the standard to 3 floors in the Federal Building Code (this would harmonize our rules with the U.S. which often carries weight w/officials in Ottawa), then examining under what circumstances one might be able to do so at 4 or 5 floors.

As much as AODA is important, I'm not sure accessibility is such an overriding priority to make housing worse and less affordable for everyone. Especially when the ground floor can be fully accessible in such a building, so 1/6 of the units in a 6 storey apartment can be accessible, plus all the units in highrise buildings.

This sort of reminds me how the latest regulations for single-occupant washrooms has lead them to be enormous, with costly push-button door opening and locking mechanisms. This serves to drive up costs dramatically.

 

[Northern Light]

As much as AODA is important, I'm not sure accessibility is such an overriding priority to make housing worse and less affordable for everyone. Especially when the ground floor can be fully accessible in such a building, so 1/6 of the units in a 6 storey apartment can be accessible, plus all the units in highrise buildings.

This sort of reminds me how the latest regulations for single-occupant washrooms has lead them to be enormous, with costly push-button door opening and locking mechanisms. This serves to drive up costs dramatically.

Full accessibility aside; for a typical senior, asking them to walk up six floors with groceries is not that reasonble. Expecting your delivery person to do that isn't all that likely either, or your homecare worker.

I'm far from strident on this issue............strident is David Leopofsky.

Still, I think you're a bit too dismissive on this issue.

Wait til you have an aging parent with COPD who nearly has a heart attack climbing one floor. (my parents are gone now, but I remember the struggles)

 

[Towered]

Full accessibility aside; for a typical senior, asking them to walk up six floors with groceries is not that reasonble. Expecting your delivery person to do that isn't all that likely either, or your homecare worker.

I'm far from strident on this issue............strident is David Leopofsky.

Still, I think you're a bit too dismissive on this issue.

Wait til you have an aging parent with COPD who nearly has a heart attack climbing one floor. (my parents are gone now, but I remember the struggles)

I remember watching my grandparents having to drag themselves up 4 storeys to their apartment for years. They never seemed to complain about it, but I personally felt very bad for them. Decades later those buildings were retrofitted with exterior elevators.

 

[afransen]

Full accessibility aside; for a typical senior, asking them to walk up six floors with groceries is not that reasonble. Expecting your delivery person to do that isn't all that likely either, or your homecare worker.

I'm far from strident on this issue............strident is David Leopofsky.

Still, I think you're a bit too dismissive on this issue.

Wait til you have an aging parent with COPD who nearly has a heart attack climbing one floor. (my parents are gone now, but I remember the struggles)

These buildings would still have elevators (the market would demand it, regardless of code). We're talking about the times where a single elevator would be out of service. I expect seniors and those with mobility concerns to be less likely to choose a unit on the sixth floor of such a building, just like they wouldn't live in my three storey townhouse.

It's worth noting, as the video points out, Canada takes an extreme position on this relative to global peers. Maybe we are missing the mark.

 

[Northern Light]

These buildings would still have elevators (the market would demand it, regardless of code). We're talking about the times where a single elevator would be out of service. I expect seniors and those with mobility concerns to be less likely to choose a unit on the sixth floor of such a building, just like they wouldn't live in my three storey townhouse.

I gave a real example, of my own parents, who did not use mobility aids, and could not handle even a 1s stair climb and you ignored that.

Both had the experience of no elevators in different buildings each with 2 elevators.

It's worth noting, as the video points out, Canada takes an extreme position on this relative to global peers. Maybe we are missing the mark.

I didn't support the status quo.