[reaperexpress]

To be fair: I have yet to see any train anywhere on this planet which regularly has a seating capacity comparable to a 12-car GO train (more than 1900 seats).

Manually tallying up the seats visible in my walkthrough of a 12-car Niagara train, I found about 1750 seats. It's possible I missed a few here and there, but I don't think I missed 200 seats.

Russian State Railways apparently operates 14-car double-decker trains on some main intercity routes, though I can't find stats for them. Even if you account for a lower seating density due to the intercity configuration, the capacity should be comparable.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ЭП20-024,_Russia,_Ryazan_region,_Ryazhsk-I_station_(Trainpix_195334).jpg

New Jersey Transit operates 12-car MultiLevel trains during peak periods, with a total of 1580 seats.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NJT_ALP-46_4627_at_Trenton_Station.jpg

Nederlandse Spoorwegen regularly operates 12-car bilevel trains on the main commuter routes (e.g. Amsterdam-Den Haag-Rotterdam; Amsterdam-Utrecht-Eindhoven). But they only have 1200 seats, probably due to the inclusion of first class, and massive legroom even in second class.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._8721_IC_3557_Venlo-Heerlen_(36155194755).jpg


All of the above (including GO) is based on pre-pandemic consists.

To compare: S-Bahn trains in Germany typically operate with no more than 9 single-level cars (576 seats, if triple sets of DB Class 423) and Regional Express trains typically consist of 4-6 bi/multi-level cars.

From what I've seen the RRX Regional Express trains are mostly 8 car half-bilevel sets (800 seats). Here's a clip I filmed yesterday (Saturday).

 

[Urban Sky]

Manually tallying up the seats visible in my walkthrough of a 12-car Niagara train, I found about 1750 seats. It's possible I missed a few here and there, but I don't think I missed 200 seats.

View attachment 388113

I was basing myself on Series I-IV cars, but I have to concede that Series VI-IX cars seem to be more representative to GO's current fleet:

GO Transit rail services - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russian State Railways apparently operates 14-car double-decker trains on some main intercity routes, though I can't find stats for them. Even if you account for a lower seating density due to the intercity configuration, the capacity should be comparable.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ЭП20-024,_Russia,_Ryazan_region,_Ryazhsk-I_station_(Trainpix_195334).jpg

New Jersey Transit operates 12-car MultiLevel trains during peak periods, with a total of 1580 seats.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NJT_ALP-46_4627_at_Trenton_Station.jpg

Nederlandse Spoorwegen regularly operates 12-car bilevel trains on the main commuter routes (e.g. Amsterdam-Den Haag-Rotterdam; Amsterdam-Utrecht-Eindhoven). But they only have 1200 seats, probably due to the inclusion of first class, and massive legroom even in second class.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/..._8721_IC_3557_Venlo-Heerlen_(36155194755).jpg


All of the above (including GO) is based on pre-pandemic consists.


From what I've seen the RRX Regional Express trains are mostly 8 car half-bilevel sets (800 seats). Here's a clip I filmed yesterday (Saturday).

I deliberately chose "seats" as a metric, because any count of "standees" is subject to an arbitrary conversion factor (e.g. 4 standees per m^2 of standing area), which makes it impossible to compare capacity across manufacturers and countries.

That said, that Russian train seems to be the only train I've (now) seen with (presumably) a higher seating capacity than a 12-car GO train, but that does not change that 12-car GO trains are among the highest-capacity trains operating on this planet.

Nevertheless, I agree with @robmausser that running shorter and more frequent trains rather than these absurd 12-car monster trains would be preferable...

 

[reaperexpress]

I deliberately chose "seats" as a metric, because any count of "standees" is subject to an arbitrary conversion factor (e.g. 4 standees per m^2 of standing area), which makes it impossible to compare capacity across manufacturers and countries.

Yes I discovered this a couple weeks ago when I was trying to calculate a metric of "average number of doors per passenger" to compare boarding efficiency for different rolling stock. The estimates for standees were so wildly inconsistent that I just gave up.

That said, that Russian train seems to be the only train I've (now) seen with (presumably) a higher seating capacity than a 12-car GO train, but that does not change that 12-car GO trains are among the highest-capacity trains operating on this planet.

Yes it was purely an excercise in "let's see what we can dig up on the old interwebs. I think there may also be some 12+ car double-decker Indian Railways intercity trains but I need to keep digging on that one.

Nevertheless, I agree with @robmausser that running shorter and more frequent trains rather than these absurd 12-car monster trains would be preferable...

Certainly. 12-car GO trains run slower than frozen molasses. What is especially silly about GO's 12-car sets is that they only have 4 powered axles. The Russian locomotive pictured has 6 powered axles; NJ Transit usually runs two locomotives on such long trains, for a total of 8 powered axles; and the 12-car NS VIRM sets have 12 powered axles.

It's also worth noting that both of the routes where Nederlandse Spoorwegen uses 12-car trains already have Intercity service every 10 minutes all day (including off-peak), in addition to local service every 15 minutes or better. Part of the reason for such large trains is that the country has such a tightly-scheduled hourly service pattern that increasing train lengths is in some cases the only practical way of increasing capacity.

 

[Bordercollie]

Yes I discovered this a couple weeks ago when I was trying to calculate a metric of "average number of doors per passenger" to compare boarding efficiency for different rolling stock. The estimates for standees were so wildly inconsistent that I just gave up.


Yes it was purely an excercise in "let's see what we can dig up on the old interwebs. I think there may also be some 12+ car double-decker Indian Railways intercity trains but I need to keep digging on that one.


Certainly. 12-car GO trains run slower than frozen molasses. What is especially silly about GO's 12-car sets is that they only have 4 powered axles. The Russian locomotive pictured has 6 powered axles; NJ Transit usually runs two locomotives on such long trains, for a total of 8 powered axles; and the 12-car NS VIRM sets have 12 powered axles.

It's also worth noting that both of the routes where the 12-car trains are used have Intercity service every 10 minutes all day (including off-peak), in addition to local service every 15 minutes or better. Part of the reason for such large trains is that the country has such a tightly-scheduled hourly service pattern that increasing train lengths is in some cases the only practical way of increasing capacity.

It's all in perspective of what is slow or fast, and in the design of the schedules.
They ordered and designed the MP40 to meet their criteria and to meet their schedules. Or to build the schedules around the specifications around the capabilities of their trains.

Sure EMU's are faster but even at the standards of today and post covid traffic 1 hour and 15 minutes from West Harbor to Union is very competitive vs taking the car. If you take any weather delays or accidents driving is probably slower.

At 9L per 100km 67km is. $13.70 in gas. $13.60 with the GO train and you dont have to pay for the wear and tear or insurance not to mention car payments.

I think that's a pretty good deal. I'm sure the express train could do that trip in 50min.

 

[Tristen]

I'm sure the express train could do that trip in 50min.

The goal of Metrolinx should be making route 16 less competitive than trains.

 

[reaperexpress]

The goal of Metrolinx should be making route 16 less competitive than trains.

Careful what you wish for, next thing you know the 16 will be stopping at McMaster, Burlington Park & Ride and Oakville Park & Ride along the way.

It wouldn't be unprecedented. Route 30 used to run non-stop from Bramalea to Kitchener, providing faster Toronto-Kitchener trips than direct trains. GO rectified this imbalance by making the 30 do a detour to an office park in Meadowdale.

The 40 used to act as an express service between Hamilton and Square One, while route 47 provided local service along the same route. But now the 40 also makes two intermediate stops at Park & Ride lots. Benefiting a few potential riders at those small parking lots in the middle of nowhere (who were already served by the 47) at the expense of the riders between the downtowns of two large cities.

And don't get me started on the continued lack of express service on route 12 Burlington-Niagara, route 25 Waterloo-Missauga, route 29 Guelph-Mississauga, or route 88 Oshawa-Peterborough.

 

[Bordercollie]

Interesting article on the London GO Train.

London GO train off to slow start as mayor lobbies premier for boost

New GO train service between London and Toronto is picking up a few dozen travellers every trip, a slow start that’s no surprise to advocates for better rail…

lfpress.com

 

[anb]

Careful what you wish for, next thing you know the 16 will be stopping at McMaster, Burlington Park & Ride and Oakville Park & Ride along the way.

It wouldn't be unprecedented. Route 30 used to run non-stop from Bramalea to Kitchener, providing faster Toronto-Kitchener trips than direct trains. GO rectified this imbalance by making the 30 do a detour to an office park in Meadowdale.

The 40 used to act as an express service between Hamilton and Square One, while route 47 provided local service along the same route. But now the 40 also makes two intermediate stops at Park & Ride lots. Benefiting a few potential riders at those small parking lots in the middle of nowhere (who were already served by the 47) at the expense of the riders between the downtowns of two large cities.

And don't get me started on the continued lack of express service on route 12 Burlington-Niagara, route 25 Waterloo-Missauga, route 29 Guelph-Mississauga, or route 88 Oshawa-Peterborough.

At least the 30 and 40 isn’t the most out of the way route with its stops. Even though i think the former serving Meadowvale Business Park was sort of random but hey more connections to KW i guess, but it does run non stop to Kitchener after that so it varies between traffic time. 40 is still a fast route (maybe not from the west to the 407 and RHC as much since connecting to 45 at Square One gets you there directly 2x faster, but for being an Airport regional express bus, it works perfectly).

We used to have all day express buses on the 12 (12B) and 25 (25C), but ML cancelled them because of the pandemic and considering what they’re doing right now with their service, i don’t think they’re going to bring them back anytime soon. 29 doesn’t really need an express service as it doesn’t serve that many stops, but the 88 definitely needs one for sure.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It's all in perspective of what is slow or fast, and in the design of the schedules.
They ordered and designed the MP40 to meet their criteria and to meet their schedules. Or to build the schedules around the specifications around the capabilities of their trains.

Sure EMU's are faster but even at the standards of today and post covid traffic 1 hour and 15 minutes from West Harbor to Union is very competitive vs taking the car. If you take any weather delays or accidents driving is probably slower.

At 9L per 100km 67km is. $13.70 in gas. $13.60 with the GO train and you dont have to pay for the wear and tear or insurance not to mention car payments.

I think that's a pretty good deal. I'm sure the express train could do that trip in 50min.

as someone who does the drive regularly, outside of peak rush hour it's pretty easy to do that drive in less than 1:15.*especially* if you are not just sticking to the right lane doing 90 the whole way (in the parts without traffic at least).

Generally 0:45 in no traffic (late at night) to a little under an hour in other times. Morning rush hour might be more like 1:15, evening 1:25 or so. 1 hour gives some time for a few minutes of congestion through Oakville, Mississauga, and on the Gardiner itself, which is typical, but otherwise much of that route moves at 100km/h or so.

Pre-covid, it was longer, but traffic levels haven't returned to that level of congestion yet. (it got closish last summer). Even pre-covid, worse case would be 1:30-1:40 on a disaster friday night before a long weekend type drive.


You can see this with the Hamilton express bus schedules, which generally schedules 1:00 trip times outside of rush hour. And we all know that GO buses drive a lot slower than private vehicles.

1:15 is generally competitive, but when you consider longer last mile connections (unless your origin and destination happens to be right beside West Harbour and Union), driving wins out a lot more.

Running Niagara weekend trip super-express trains would help a lot, which if they were to stop at West Harbour could likely make the trip in a little under an hour.

 

[Richard White]

Running Niagara weekend trip super-express trains would help a lot, which if they were to stop at West Harbour could likely make the trip in a little under an hour.

Super Express trains would likely increase usage a fair bit. Right now it is almost 3 hours with stops at every city along the way.

Even if it is only one train every morning that deadheads from Union to Niagara, it would be alot faster than stopping at Union, Exhibition, Mimico, Port Credit, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, St Catherines and then Niagara,.

 

[ShonTron]

Yeah, the additional stop on the 30 doesn’t bother me much. The Meadowvale area has a few Mississauga and Brampton buses running through it, so there are some useful connections there.

Routing the 88 through Downtown Bowmanville is annoyingly slow, especially as a connection was already available at the Highway 2/35-115 lot.

 

[Deadpool X]

as someone who does the drive regularly, outside of peak rush hour it's pretty easy to do that drive in less than 1:15.*especially* if you are not just sticking to the right lane doing 90 the whole way (in the parts without traffic at least).

Generally 0:45 in no traffic (late at night) to a little under an hour in other times. Morning rush hour might be more like 1:15, evening 1:25 or so. 1 hour gives some time for a few minutes of congestion through Oakville, Mississauga, and on the Gardiner itself, which is typical, but otherwise much of that route moves at 100km/h or so.

Pre-covid, it was longer, but traffic levels haven't returned to that level of congestion yet. (it got closish last summer). Even pre-covid, worse case would be 1:30-1:40 on a disaster friday night before a long weekend type drive.


You can see this with the Hamilton express bus schedules, which generally schedules 1:00 trip times outside of rush hour. And we all know that GO buses drive a lot slower than private vehicles.

1:15 is generally competitive, but when you consider longer last mile connections (unless your origin and destination happens to be right beside West Harbour and Union), driving wins out a lot more.

Running Niagara weekend trip super-express trains would help a lot, which if they were to stop at West Harbour could likely make the trip in a little under an hour.

I'll add 2 more points to this:

1. Many couples work in downtown and driving may be a cheaper option for such couples, including parking.

2. Most of the downtown workforce is not within walking distance from Union. So, that's $6.40 of additional TTC fare per day.

GO should either be a lot faster to compete on time or much cheaper to compete on price.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I'll add 2 more points to this:

1. Many couples work in downtown and driving may be a cheaper option for such couples, including parking.

2. Most of the downtown workforce is not within walking distance from Union. So, that's $6.40 of additional TTC fare per day.

GO should either be a lot faster to compete on time or much cheaper to compete on price.

Parking at City Hall (link). Still cheaper for a couple to use the TTC. Most forget about the cost of gasoline or other fuels, maintenance, depreciation, insurance, etc..

Rate Information​

$3.50/half hour


Day Maximum (7am – 6pm): $20.00

Night Maximum (6pm – 7am): $6.00

Sat/Sun/Holidays

Maximum (7am – 7am): $8.00

 

[reaperexpress]

What is this dissussion? There is no distinct boundary between "competitive" and "uncompetitive".

Every origin-destination pair will have a different ratio of car:transit travel time depending on factors such as proximity to stations/stops, availability/cost of parking, etc. And every individual has different preferences regarding the relative importance of travel time, cost, comfort, etc. And even then, different people subconsciously weight different types of travel time differently. Some people may weight time in a train lower than the same amount of time driving, since they could do something else at the same time (watch a movie, work, etc), meanwhile they may weight the time spent waiting for a bus/train higher than the same amount of time driving, because it's annoying. And then some people don't care at all, weighting all types of travel time equally (i.e. they just want to get there as quickly as possible, regardless of how much effort it takes).

Every minute you cut off of a GO bus/train schedule makes it a bit more competitive against the alternatives. Sure, a 12-car train with one 4-axle diesel locomotive may be "adequate" for GO's specifications, but the same locomotive pulling 6 coaches will get people from point A to point B several minutes quicker and attract a few more potential riders - as long as crowding isn't a problem. Hence the need for express services, particularly during busier periods.

 

[Bordercollie]

What is this dissussion? There is no distinct boundary between "competitive" and "uncompetitive".

Every origin-destination pair will have a different ratio of car:transit travel time depending on factors such as proximity to stations/stops, availability/cost of parking, etc. And every individual has different preferences regarding the relative importance of travel time, cost, comfort, etc. And even then, different people subconsciously weight different types of travel time differently. Some people may weight time in a train lower than the same amount of time driving, since they could do something else at the same time (watch a movie, work, etc), meanwhile they may weight the time spent waiting for a bus/train higher than the same amount of time driving, because it's annoying. And then some people don't care at all, weighting all types of travel time equally (i.e. they just want to get there as quickly as possible, regardless of how much effort it takes).

Every minute you cut off of a GO bus/train schedule makes it a bit more competitive against the alternatives. Sure, a 12-car train with one 4-axle diesel locomotive may be "adequate" for GO's specifications, but the same locomotive pulling 6 coaches will get people from point A to point B several minutes quicker and attract a few more potential riders - as long as crowding isn't a problem. Hence the need for express services, particularly during busier periods.

Right but then there is the cost to procure additional locomotives and train crews not to mention the track time.