[turini2]

Metrolinx learned in the sense that they couldn't get anyone to use this kind of P3 model with projects with similar levels of complexity - and what they could get through afterwards has a significantly higher price tag than originally envisioned.

AoD

Also - instead of starting with a P3 LRT project on Finch etc, ML had their first P3 LRT project be the longest line, with a complex mix of technologies, build methods and interfaces.

Maybe if Sheppard East, Scarborough or Finch had been built first - the ML team would have been more experienced regarding the perils of P3's and what to look for! Too late now...

 

[cplchanb]

Also - instead of starting with a P3 LRT project on Finch etc, ML had their first P3 LRT project be the longest line, with a complex mix of technologies, build methods and interfaces.

Maybe if Sheppard East, Scarborough or Finch had been built first - the ML team would have been more experienced regarding the perils of P3's and what to look for!

Well to be fair... the Sheppard lrt was well on its way in 2009 when Rob Ford cancelled it.

 

[yrt+viva=1system]

- ML was a “young” design organization with a lot of organizational flaws, and which recruited people from a wide variety of external agencies . In theory this ought to have brought a lot of talent to the table, but getting all those different backgrounds and work methods to a common denominator proved to be a bridge too far. That’s how you have people procuring trams with one wheel profile but rail with a different profile…. neither was “wrong”, but left hands and right hands didn’t connect. Plus, in the early years of Crosstown Ml had too many “planners” who only talked at high levels with little execution focus - and too few experienced designers and builders who actually knew the nuts and bolts and who could anticipate and solve problems.

Not exactly related to the Crosstown but something that I learned from working in the asphalt paving industry is there's a lot of "experts" and or "third party referee experts" who are usually new to the industry and only have textbook/theory experience and need to show off that they are the head honcho big shot.

 

[crs1026]

Not exactly related to the Crosstown but something that I learned from working in the asphalt paving industry is there's a lot of "experts" and or "third party referee experts" who are usually new to the industry and only have textbook/theory experience who need to show off that they are the head honcho big shot.

In ML’s case it has been a combination of enthusiastic people with classroom knowledge but not practical experience who are eager to apply the latest and best without regard to whether that’s practical or achievable without lots of change managemwnt…….And people hired from afar with good experience in other environments but who have been given swelled heads and make assumptions about all the details being just as they were accustomed to in their home gig, that may need adjustment before a solution will work here.
If you want to get ML staffers giggling, just slide the word “loops” into the discussion. It’s the standard overseas term for what we call a siding….But in ML space it’s a bit of an inside-joke perjorative code word for foreign experts who believe they were hired to teach Ontario folks how to railroad.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

So, are we looking at even more delays? Like 2025?

I think 2025 is likely. A year from now is essentially June 2024. That‘s not long enough for things to work their way through the courts. So, add another six to seven months and then we‘re into Jan-Feb 2025. But you don’t want to launch a new system in the snow…. so that’s April-May 2025.

 

[max]

Well to be fair... the Sheppard lrt was well on its way in 2009 when Rob Ford cancelled it.

We really need to stop repeating the fiction that Toronto Mayors have decision power over these transit projects. The McGuinty government cancelled it, at Ford's request.

 

[allengeorge]

I wonder if the answer is to move to a model where agencies do all the design, build and management in-house and contract with private parties to do specific subsections under project management from the public body.

Yes, you would still have overruns, but at least if a contractor is incompetent, you wouldn’t be stuck without an alternative.

 

[drum118]

We really need to stop repeating the fiction that Toronto Mayors have decision power over these transit projects. The McGuinty government cancelled it, at Ford's request.

End of the day, it was Ford(s) who did not like streetcars that can Transit City Plan just like Miller who requested it. Ontario was only funding it at the wishes of the Mayors. Therefore, the Mayors were calling the shots not like Ford who is Dictating How Transit Should Be Built now.

 

[Voltz]

uhhh.... no...?? look how the university extension turned out to be....
its damned if you do damned if you dont... the big lesson in all this is:

1. contractors should not undercut on their fees in desperation to get their jobs without the expectations they will be on the hook for extras (unless its for acts of god events). they cant rely on value engineering and corner cutting to recoupt their profits
2. ML cant blindly take the lowest bid. they are usually too good to be true. im sure most taxpayers would be fine with higher bid prices if it means fewer extras and delays
3. issues happen all the time. DONT be like verster and publicly burn the bridge like what he did. it only will lead to finger pointing and litigation like now
4. verster's contract cannot be renewed.

Real issues that I didn't like with the switch was the big and drawn out procurement process that had to take place, the delayed construction schedule.

 

[Voltz]

I wonder if the answer is to move to a model where agencies do all the design, build and management in-house and contract with private parties to do specific subsections under project management from the public body.

Yes, you would still have overruns, but at least if a contractor is incompetent, you wouldn’t be stuck without an alternative.

Isn't that how it was done, before the P3 fad came about?

 

[Undead]

If you want to get ML staffers giggling, just slide the word “loops” into the discussion. It’s the standard overseas term for what we call a siding….But in ML space it’s a bit of an inside-joke perjorative code word for foreign experts who believe they were hired to teach Ontario folks how to railroad.

I see the made in Ontario blinkeredness is not just a TTC problem, though it's usually much more publicized in the TTC's case.

 

[toronto647]

I think 2025 is likely. A year from now is essentially June 2024. That‘s not long enough for things to work their way through the courts. So, add another six to seven months and then we‘re into Jan-Feb 2025. But you don’t want to launch a new system in the snow…. so that’s April-May 2025.

Lol April/May 2025 is the new opening date? You guys don't think sooner?

 

[Imthedamguy]

Im still holding to the belief that it will open January 2024, there’s no way they would realistically let it be delayed until that long. All the stations are basically complete and the fact they opened the eglinton platform extension kind of confirms that.

 

[T3G]

You really think this whole legal matter will be cleared up, and the many deficiencies corrected, in 8 months' time? The Eglinton platform extension is not proof of anything, they finished the work so they opened it. It's not like the Crosstown's absence has otherwise materially impacted operations at Eglinton station.

I also think the spring 2025 timeline seems credible.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I wonder if the answer is to move to a model where agencies do all the design, build and management in-house and contract with private parties to do specific subsections under project management from the public body.

Yes, you would still have overruns, but at least if a contractor is incompetent, you wouldn’t be stuck without an alternative.

I want to see an estimate as to how much money we would save moving the expertise in-house. It seems that the only folks getting a good deal out of transit planning and implementation in the GTA is arguably a) consultants; b) trades unions and c) lawyers.

AoD