[Allandale25]

Very rough notes/some paraphrasing from the Eglinton West Q and A where Crosstown progress was asked.

• Major construction done, small works tiles, water leaks, pipeline issues to resolve;
• System tests are critical. In December they were 15% complete and as of March they were 50% March complete;
• First big concern: software defects in trains and software progress. Not as fast in terms of progress. Last week, release 6 of software which addressed some of the issues; release 7 planned for June. Softare is the never centre for the keeping the trains on time and safely;
• 20 TTC trainers (I assume trained or to be trained?); there will then be 90 operators trained in in three groups;
• 41 occupancy certificates required, and 36 now awarded; Kennedy and Cedarvale the latest. Yonge-Eglinton the biggest. Nearly there. Some deficiencies to address; and
• Second biggest concern: construction certificates. Only 1/46 certificates done with the rest in progress.

 

[stevensontransit]

Very rough notes/some paraprasing from the Eglinton West Q and A where Crosstown progress was asked.

• Major construction done, small works tiles, water leaks, pipeline issues to resolve;
• System tests are critical. In December they were 15% complete and as of March they were 50% March complete;
• First big concern software defects in trains and software progress. Not as fast in terms of progress. Last week, release 6 of software which addressed some of the issues; release 7 planned for June. Softare is the never centre for the keeping the trains on time and safely;
• 20 TTC trainers (I assume trained or to be trained?); there will then be 90 operators trained in in three groups;
• 41 occupancy certificates required, and 36 now awarded; Kennedy and Cedarvale the latest. Yonge-Eglinton the biggest. Nearly there. Some deficiencies to address; and
• Second biggest concern: construction certificates. Only 1/46 certificates done with the rest in progress.

Would construction and repairs ramp up next month when the weather is warmer?

 

[cplchanb]

• System tests are critical. In December they were 15% complete and as of March they were 50% March complete;

so by summers end it should be 100% complete then (35% in 3 months to 85% in June)

• First big concern: software defects in trains and software progress. Not as fast in terms of progress. Last week, release 6 of software which addressed some of the issues; release 7 planned for June. Softare is the nerve centre for the keeping the trains on time and safely

How many patches do they think theyll need?

• 41 occupancy certificates required, and 36 now awarded; Kennedy and Cedarvale the latest. Yonge-Eglinton the biggest. Nearly there. Some deficiencies to address;

progress looks good; hopefully they can divert more resources as stations are signed off

• Second biggest concern: construction certificates. Only 1/46 certificates done with the rest in progress.

wowsers! what is taking so long?! how is this different from occupancy certs?

 

[toronto647]

Very rough notes/some paraphrasing from the Eglinton West Q and A where Crosstown progress was asked.

• Major construction done, small works tiles, water leaks, pipeline issues to resolve;
• System tests are critical. In December they were 15% complete and as of March they were 50% March complete;
• First big concern: software defects in trains and software progress. Not as fast in terms of progress. Last week, release 6 of software which addressed some of the issues; release 7 planned for June. Softare is the never centre for the keeping the trains on time and safely;
• 20 TTC trainers (I assume trained or to be trained?); there will then be 90 operators trained in in three groups;
• 41 occupancy certificates required, and 36 now awarded; Kennedy and Cedarvale the latest. Yonge-Eglinton the biggest. Nearly there. Some deficiencies to address; and
• Second biggest concern: construction certificates. Only 1/46 certificates done with the rest in progress.

In case someone wants to hear Phil say it himself lol

https://twitter.com/i/broadcasts/1nAKEaVEDZvKL?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1772307660777345326%7Ctwgr%5E29539c086990a6c9cdab2b8ba82fd7902f34844d%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Furbantoronto.ca%2Fforum%2Fthreads%2Ftoronto-eglinton-line-5-crosstown-west-extension-m-s-metrolinx.28144%2Fpage-219

 

[Allandale25]

Very rough notes/some paraphrasing from the Eglinton West Q and A where Crosstown progress was asked.

• Major construction done, small works tiles, water leaks, pipeline issues to resolve;
• System tests are critical. In December they were 15% complete and as of March they were 50% March complete;
• First big concern: software defects in trains and software progress. Not as fast in terms of progress. Last week, release 6 of software which addressed some of the issues; release 7 planned for June. Softare is the never centre for the keeping the trains on time and safely;
• 20 TTC trainers (I assume trained or to be trained?); there will then be 90 operators trained in in three groups;
• 41 occupancy certificates required, and 36 now awarded; Kennedy and Cedarvale the latest. Yonge-Eglinton the biggest. Nearly there. Some deficiencies to address; and
• Second biggest concern: construction certificates. Only 1/46 certificates done with the rest in progress.

Media article noting the above.

‘The nerve centre’: Issues with Eglinton Crosstown LRT software persist - Toronto | Globalnews.ca

By June, software meant to run trains on the route will be in its seventh iteration. The head of Ontario's transit agency said the program will be the 'nerve centre' of the LRT.

globalnews.ca

 

[nfitz]

[*]First big concern: software defects in trains and software progress. Not as fast in terms of progress. Last week, release 6 of software which addressed some of the issues; release 7 planned for June. Softare is the never centre for the keeping the trains on time and safely;

So there is still big concerns with the software, and they won't even bring in the next release for 3 months! And then they have to test it ... so can't begin a 3-month countdown for at least 7 months - probably more.

Sounds more like a 2025 opening, assuming there's no major construction deficiencies. They didn't say much about such deficiencies, in the bit I heard.

 

[T3G]

How can there be software defects, if we've been using the same cars on the downtown network for 10 years and ION for the last 5? What on earth are they doing?

 

[nfitz]

How can there be software defects, if we've been using the same cars on the downtown network for 10 years and ION for the last 5? What on earth are they doing?

The downtown streetcars aren't the same. Most significantly, it doesn't use ATC.

ION had ATC issues for a while, though most of the route they don't use it. Is it the same ATC system as Line 5?

 

[cplchanb]

I wonder if the 90 operators and the 20 trainers can be trained to operate together at the same time and then the 20 do additional instructor training? I have feeling this may be a big bottleneck at the home stretch, especially if version 7 of the software is unsuccessful

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

The downtown streetcars aren't the same. Most significantly, it doesn't use ATC.

ION had ATC issues for a while, though most of the route they don't use it. Is it the same ATC system as Line 5?

ION doesn't use ATC. ION uses ATP. Vehicles on ION are controlled by the operator at all times with the ATP providing a display with maximum permissive speed limit. It's a different setup to what is going to be used on the Crosstown. On Line 5, the trains are driven by the computer in the ATC section, much like on Line 1. this requires software with much deeper integration with the train systems than ATP would require, as ATP only requires the ability to activate train brakes for overspeed events.

 

[robmausser]

How can there be software defects, if we've been using the same cars on the downtown network for 10 years and ION for the last 5? What on earth are they doing?

The Strreetcars downtown (which are different cars btw) don't use ATC (the software in question here), and the ION uses a different ATC system than the Crosstown will use.

 

[allengeorge]

Given this news, my bet is March 2025 for an opening.

First off, I’m not surprised the software has defects - all software has defects! And integration time is when the most surprising ones show up, so I’m sympathetic.

That said, it (sounds?) like they’re next rolling out a release after 3 months, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they needed a at least another release after that. I would really like to know the cadence of their previous releases, so we could predict how long that would take. At any rate, I doubt it’s faster than a month - so that takes us to July.

Presumably you want to train your operators on as close to a finalized system as possible, so maybe that’s when the TTC starts really training their 20 trainers and 90 operators. I can’t imagine that will take anything under a couple of months - probably 3. By that time you’re already in October.

And then of course - the 1 month bedding-in period, so, November.

I would truly be sketchy about opening the line in winter. Too many unknowns and a high likelihood of something going wrong (like, say, a van going onto the tracks when there’s snow on the ground).

Honestly, the Crosstown is the biggest running joke/frustration in transit construction anyways, so you take your lumps and punt until spring, when there are some sunny days, politicians, can stand in their suits and cut some ribbons, and everyone is just feeling a little more positive about the world. You can also give yourself some buffer room here: clean up some more defects, handle some delays in training, etc etc.

At least that’s what I’d do.

PS. I’m making the assumption here that the software is the most problematic component, not the construction certificates.

 

[toronto647]

Given this news, my bet is March 2025 for an opening.

First off, I’m not surprised the software has defects - all software has defects! And integration time is when the most surprising ones show up, so I’m sympathetic.

That said, it (sounds?) like they’re next rolling out a release after 3 months, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they needed a at least another release after that. I would really like to know the cadence of their previous releases, so we could predict how long that would take. At any rate, I doubt it’s faster than a month - so that takes us to July.

Presumably you want to train your operators on as close to a finalized system as possible, so maybe that’s when the TTC starts really training their 20 trainers and 90 operators. I can’t imagine that will take anything under a couple of months - probably 3. By that time you’re already in October.

And then of course - the 1 month bedding-in period, so, November.

I would truly be sketchy about opening the line in winter. Too many unknowns and a high likelihood of something going wrong (like, say, a van going onto the tracks when there’s snow on the ground).

Honestly, the Crosstown is the biggest running joke/frustration in transit construction anyways, so you take your lumps and punt until spring, when there are some sunny days, politicians, can stand in their suits and cut some ribbons, and everyone is just feeling a little more positive about the world.

At least that’s what I’d do.

PS. I’m making the assumption here that the software is the most problematic component, not the construction certificates.

Another winter for folks to take busses on eglinton will be very challenging and disappointing for riders. Also the snow logic doesn't make sense because as we all know snow storms can last all the way till April lol.

An announcement for the opening date has to be made by end of 2024 or else it will be challenging to show face and impact the Conservatives chances of winning another election imo

 

[allengeorge]

An announcement for the opening date has to be made by end of 2024 or else it will be challenging to show face and impact the Conservatives chances of winning another election imo

IIRC the next provincial election is 2026. That’s plenty of time, and no one will remember this as an OPC issue. Metrolinx does one thing supremely well: they take the fall for whoever their political masters are, and people blame Metrolinx for this, not Queens Park.

Besides, assuming the Trudeau government somehow manages to stumble through 2024, there will be a federal election in 2025 taking up all the oxygen.

As such, 2025 is a fine year for opening. There’s really no political downsides to the OPC IMO. There’s far more of a downside if the Crosstown opens and then it has to shut again.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

The political cost of not opening this line by the end of 2024 is very high. How many anticipated opening years have gone by now?

That being said, I agree with @allengeorge here. It does not seem likely for this line to open by December knowing what we know now.

I expect Finch West to open this year and Metrolinx will probably go all in on Finch-related PR to take attention away from the crosstown.