[taal]

Well to be fair though ... they've always been in the core : - ) ... for many years now ... so this really isn't a 'move in'.

Honestly for all the talk of companies moving into the core from the 905 - very little of that has actually happened ... yes there are a couple examples (coke / great gulf being two ... both from the outer 416 as opposed to the 905 interestingly enough ..) there are others. There are more from midtown companies moving into the greater core

 

[milanista]

Cisco was already located in the core at Brookfield Place, hopefully they are talking about other offices around the GTA moving downtown

 

[pw20]

Well to be fair though ... they've always been in the core : - ) ... for many years now ... so this really isn't a 'move in'.

Honestly for all the talk of companies moving into the core from the 905 - very little of that has actually happened ... yes there are a couple examples (coke / great gulf being two ... both from the outer 416 as opposed to the 905 interestingly enough ..) there are others. There are more from midtown companies moving into the greater core

Totally - I'd LOVE to see the stats at the loss of office space around Yonge/Bloor, Yonge and Sheppard as companies migrate into the defined core. The reality is that those secondary nodes (Bloor/Kipling, STC) never really took off as office nodes. The only success seems to be Yonge/Eglinton which has developed as a node for some tech companies (Facebook, LinkedIn).

Also ttk77 - tech companies (like cisco") are moving in to the core - but their office floor plates are tiny. Like Cisco took 15,000 square feet - these aren't major movers and shakers in office space needs. Nice to have them - but they aren't occupying buildings like 156 Front.

 

[ttk77]

Totally - I'd LOVE to see the stats at the loss of office space around Yonge/Bloor, Yonge and Sheppard as companies migrate into the defined core. The reality is that those secondary nodes (Bloor/Kipling, STC) never really took off as office nodes. The only success seems to be Yonge/Eglinton which has developed as a node for some tech companies (Facebook, LinkedIn).

Also ttk77 - tech companies (like cisco") are moving in to the core - but their office floor plates are tiny. Like Cisco took 15,000 square feet - these aren't major movers and shakers in office space needs. Nice to have them - but they aren't occupying buildings like 156 Front.

From my understanding it's mainly been the office component of these companies in the core, and not R&D. I can say from experience, it is not easy finding an R&D position in the core. Most tech positions seem to be located in the outer burbs, like Vaughan where I'm working now, or Markham where I was working previously.

You're right, 15000 square foot of office space isn't much in comparison to what the financial companies take up in the core, but it does represent a fairly sizeable R&D footprint.

 

[taal]

Totally - I'd LOVE to see the stats at the loss of office space around Yonge/Bloor, Yonge and Sheppard as companies migrate into the defined core. The reality is that those secondary nodes (Bloor/Kipling, STC) never really took off as office nodes. The only success seems to be Yonge/Eglinton which has developed as a node for some tech companies (Facebook, LinkedIn).

Also ttk77 - tech companies (like cisco") are moving in to the core - but their office floor plates are tiny. Like Cisco took 15,000 square feet - these aren't major movers and shakers in office space needs. Nice to have them - but they aren't occupying buildings like 156 Front.

Cisco took 150,000 square feet !!!

 

[ttk77]

Cisco took 150,000 square feet !!!

? both the globe and the star are indicating 15000.

 

[pw20]

Is it possible that they originally had 100,000 and added 15,000 specific to this innovation hub business?

 

[taal]

Yep I think that's exactly it, maybe 150,000 is off though:

The 889,000-square-foot RBC WaterPark Place at 88 Queens
Quay West scheduled for Q3 2014 delivery. Cisco Systems has
also just been confirmed for 70,000 square feet.

From:
http://www.ngkf.com/home/about-our-firm/global-offices/canada/market-reports.aspx?d=2758

But this mentions 100,000
http://www.cbre.ca/AssetLibrary/TorontoOfficeDevelopment_Sep2013.pdf


Anyway I'm sure its more then 15,000, that's probably just for the initiative above.

 

[taal]

Totally - I'd LOVE to see the stats at the loss of office space around Yonge/Bloor, Yonge and Sheppard as companies migrate into the defined core. The reality is that those secondary nodes (Bloor/Kipling, STC) never really took off as office nodes. The only success seems to be Yonge/Eglinton which has developed as a node for some tech companies (Facebook, LinkedIn).

Also ttk77 - tech companies (like cisco") are moving in to the core - but their office floor plates are tiny. Like Cisco took 15,000 square feet - these aren't major movers and shakers in office space needs. Nice to have them - but they aren't occupying buildings like 156 Front.

So Yonge and Bloor / St. Clair / Eglinton / NYCC ... are fairly stable markets that have very low stock available, but don't see a lot of new action. So I actually don't think many moves happened from these locations to the core, a few did but probably had some of that space leased back.

Most of the growth in the core can probably be broken down to:
1) Expansion (and now probably more relocation) of traditional FIRE industries ... i.e. the big players.
2) Smaller / medium tech / media companies in the fringes of the core. Most of these are new entrants to the market, so not relocations, just new players, some are American companies.
3) A lot of institutional (i.e. schools / health care).

But there's been little to any 905 -> 416 migration ... and that won't change.


Amazon recently set up a new development (this is real development, not marketing) lab downtown ! So things like that are great, they already had a presence in Mississauga, which still exists (note again the lack of a move), but rather they expanded into the core. Hopefully more of this will happen.



Another thing I've been thinking about; So we know most of the American HQ in Canada are located in the 905 (mainly Mississauga) but there are some big exceptions (some of these are Canadian companies):
McDonald
Home Depot

Both located around the 404 / Eglinton area. I wonder what these companies will do - I'd wager either stay put or maybe move to the 905. But part of me wishes to see something like Coke, i.e. relocate to the fridges of the core (where its affordable).

This Great Gulf development (on the other side of the gradiner east) I think has potentially to attract such tenants ... but I'm really not sure there are enough of them to go around, unless you get the likes of those in the 905. But once your in the 905 its hard to leave

 

[Filip]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - companies in the core attract THE TOP TALENT from around the GTA. It is the only place in the GTHA that you can get to easily thanks to GO Transit. If you live in southwest Mississauga and you need to commute to Markham for your job: GOOD LUCK!

Young people like to be near the core anyway. They are going to be the next movers and shakers, and they won't easily get pulled into a 905 job.

 

[taal]

I agree and don't at the same time ......

For very young talent - yes for sure ... and that's why you see most of the smaller tech / media companies in the core (or at least start there).

But for average mid age folks, even going forward, who want to start families - I still think you are going to see the majority of them in the outer 416/905 ... yes this is a generalization, and yes I think / hope more of such families will want ot be in the core, but still by far, the majority will not. In my generation 25-35 - I'm seeing this ! A lot of folks that want to start families are moving to the suburbs, some don't and stay in the core.


Anyway the point is, for this 'middle age' segemant, that most of the medium -> larger companies want to attract, even on the tech side mind you ! They don't really have a huge need to be in the core, and being in the outer 416 (or parts of it) is probably even worse, as most of their employees are likely in the inner 905 anyway.

 

[maestro]

905 companies that aren't fly by nights may not be relocating their head offices but, they are trending to opening satelite offices in the core.

Yonug talent is dirt cheap

 

[AHK]

905 companies that aren't fly by nights may not be relocating their head offices but, they are trending to opening satellite offices in the core.

One example I know of is a technology firm with its Canadian headquarters in Burlington, and had set up and now recently grown a footprint in downtown Toronto.

 

[taal]

There are more such examples ... what was the name of the company that took over MTV's HQ around Bloor and Yonge ? That was something similar.



Anyway, I guess my point is, hopefully such growth will continue, and I think it will. But these are fairly smaller players when you look at them alone, all well under 100K, and many in the 0-5 K range.


To see large growth I think we need more international players ... so that least at QrcW was Sapiant, we need a lot more of that - now I think that was already a company in Toronto but only with a very small presence, and they took 50K.

But in terms of the 905, no we'll never see the huge employers there relocate to the core, I just don't see that happening. Many of those American companies don't even locate in the core of american cities !

 

[AHK]

To see large growth I think we need more international players ... so that least at QrcW was Sapiant, we need a lot more of that - now I think that was already a company in Toronto but only with a very small presence, and they took 50K.

According to the Allied year end conference call this morning, Sapient has already upped their lease commitment to 60,000 square feet.....