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Wow. Honestly I never knew that they were proposing elevated transit for the DRL.

In hindsight, it's a good idea that they didn't go with ICTS. DRL definately needs more than intermediate capacity.
 
My understanding is that it was proposed to be ICTS, but as studies continued it was determined that ICTS would not have sufficient capacity and the design was changed to subway.
It was certainly subway in the late 1980s when the Toronto Star was, if you recall, giving it so much coverage in the newspaper. And it was subway in the 1960s and early 1970s when it was still due in 1980.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some other proposals quickly forgotten in between.

So in 30 years, will someone be waving the Doug Ford plan for a monorail down Front Street East and down Commissioners Street under our noses and telling us that had been the original plan for the Queens Quay East streetcar (or whatever they end up building).
 
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The TTC had been planning a Queen Street subway since the 1960's in the shape of the modern DRL, but at the time it was to head to the Humber loop and not loop back up to the Bloor Danforth line as modern thought says, and it was going to be constructed to allow for the remaining streetcar lines to be ripped up, not to relieve bloor-yonge.
 
Article on

New subway (metro) systems cost nearly 9 times as much as light rail


from this link:

Before the surface electric urban railway (the technology of former streetcar and interurban systems) was reborn as light rail transit (LRT) in the mid-1970s, North American urban areas that wanted urban rail for their inner cities really didn’t think there was any choice other than a full subway-elevated system — rail rapid transit, aka a metro system.

But not only was the expense of such a system daunting, and way above the financial capability of most moderate-sized and smaller American cities, its tremendous capacity generally wasn’t needed for cities just trying to get their feet wet with better-quality public transit.

Then, LRT as an option began to emerge, unveiled with maximum force at the first National Light Rail Conference of the Transportation Research Board (TRB) in 1975, and … ka-boom! Urban rail systems in the form of lower-cost LRT began to sprout up in city after city. And they’ve been widely hailed as a great success and model for good urban public transport.

But the “why not a subway?” issue keeps rearing its head — mainly reflecting the resistance of the motor-vehicle-focused mindset to having urban space, especially street space, shared or usurped by mass transit operations. Overwhelmingly, surface LRT in one type of alignment or another (from street reservations to the re-use of abandoned railway corridors) has triumphed … although there have been cases where pressure to “build it out of sight” has forced new LRT startups underground (or even canceled planned projects altogether).

The tremendous investment cost of digging a subway and installing underground stations is obviously a huge deterrent to the development of such systems — both in the initial financing, and in sopping up available resources that could otherwise be plowed into vigorous expansion of the system. Buffalo’s 6.4-mile LRT line, for example, was constructed almost entirely (81%) in subway … and hasn’t been expanded one foot since its original opening in 1985.

One should keep in mind that the cost of more modest local projects (such as wastewater tunnels or similar smaller tunnels) can be very deceptive. Rail transit subways involve far more complex features (after all, they must provide environments to enable large numbers of human beings to survive underground safely and comfortably). There must be ventilation and lighting, of course, and often air-conditioning. More significantly from a cost standpoint, underground stations are extremely expensive, including access (elevators and escalators designed to convey large volumes of passengers rapidly up and down). Access for trains to get from the surface into the subway can also be expensive, typically involving portals spanning up to two city blocks and lengthy underground approach ramps to and from the level main subway alignment.

Nevertheless, from one city to another, subway enthusiasts (or, often, anti-rail Road Warriors seeking to tie a subway albatross around the neck of local rail planning) continue to emerge from time to time claiming that subway construction would cost only “slightly more” (or sometimes, even, “no more”) than installing a new urban rail line in public streets.

So a solid fact check is in order. After considerable investigation, the study summarized here has gathered a selected assortment of recent urban rail projects (all from the 2000s), either completed or well under construction and fully budgeted. A major and very helpful source has been Comparative Subway Construction Costs, Revised from the Pedestrian Observations blog, including data cited in comments. Additional data has come from Tramways & Urban Transit magazine (hardcopy only), September 2013 through February 2014 issues, data in Light Rail Now, Wikipedia, and the research study Comparative examination of New Start light rail transit, light railway, and bus rapid transit services opened from 2000, co-authored by Lyndon Henry and Dave Dobbs, and presented in November 2012 to the 12th National Light Rail Transit Conference in Salt Lake City, sponsored by the TRB and American Public Transportation Association (APTA).

In this cost comparison, only full subway projects (entirely or nearly totally underground) are included. These also include LRT subways (e.g., San Francisco’s Central Subway, and underground LRT projects in Seattle). LRT projects are exclusively (or nearly so) in street alignments (e.g., San Francisco’s T-Line, Salt Lake City’s University line), and involve full-capability, high-performance LRT rather than streetcar technology. In some cases (e.g., Houston, Phoenix, Minneapolis), construction may include short segments on bridges or an exclusive alignment, but most construction is in-street. (LRT development is being aggressively pursued worldwide, and there are many more LRT projects recently constructed or now under way than are included here — but keep in mind that this study focuses only on projects with exclusive or nearly exclusive in-street construction (to compare the most difficult, highest-cost type of surface construction with subway construction). For most LRT projects, in-street construction may only represent a portion of the total alignment.)

All projects include costs of vehicles and facilities, as applicable. One should also note that the unit cost of an extension project is typically less than that of a new-start project, since basic storage-maintenance facilities and a vehicle fleet are often already in place, with perhaps only incremental additions required.

Per-mile unit costs (millions of U.S. dollars per route mile) have been calculated from total project costs and project lengths, and escalated to 2014 dollars.

1_arn_subway-cost-us.jpg

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In Toronto, the ratio between the subway and LRT cost is definitely less than 9:1.

Sheppard LRT is estimated at $75 million per km, Finch LRT at $120 million. Let's say the median is $95 million per km.

Subway projects on the book are in the $300 to $500 million range, let's say $400 is the median.

Thus, the ratio is about 4:1.
 
It is interesting that the per-km costs (for both subways and LRTs) vary a lot from one city to another; even for cities ithin the same region (say, Europe) where the labour wages and the cost of materials are not vastly different.

Obviously, many factors affect the cost. It would be interesting if someone quantified those factors.
 
In Toronto, the ratio between the subway and LRT cost is definitely less than 9:1.

Sheppard LRT is estimated at $75 million per km, Finch LRT at $120 million. Let's say the median is $95 million per km.

Subway projects on the book are in the $300 to $500 million range, let's say $400 is the median.

Thus, the ratio is about 4:1.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wonder if the underground parts of the LRTs push the cost up? (connections with the subway)
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wonder if the underground parts of the LRTs push the cost up? (connections with the subway)

yes, but the underground portions are a necessary part of the LRT.

In Toronto, the ratio between the subway and LRT cost is definitely less than 9:1.

Sheppard LRT is estimated at $75 million per km, Finch LRT at $120 million. Let's say the median is $95 million per km.

Subway projects on the book are in the $300 to $500 million range, let's say $400 is the median.

Thus, the ratio is about 4:1.

Eglinton (Mount Dennis to Kennedy) costs about $330M / km.
 
yes, but the underground portions are a necessary part of the LRT.

Not really. The underground portions are necessary to make transfers to the subway easier and are made practical by electric motors and rails LRT happens to have. Diesel bus requires much wider tunnels and higher airflow which significantly increases the cost of the underground portion to achieve the same result (see Seattle bus tunnel for an example, or Boston silverline for what happens with a thin tunnel).

I repeat, nothing about LRT *requires* an underground tunnel to meet up with the subway at platform level. That's a customer convenience selling point, not a required feature.

A bus route doesn't require an indoor bus platform at a subway station either. It's just something we do to make the system nicer to use. Interestingly, the bus platform at Finche West appears as part of the "subway" cost but the LRT platform at Finch West appears as part of the "LRT" cost. Perception is everything in transit politics, so to me this is an interesting way of allocating costs.
 
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"Subway versus LRT" in such comparisons pretty much meaningless. It's like "road built for a sedan versus road built for a minivan".

Clearly, far more important is the design of the right-of-way and stations. Underground? Elevated? In mixed traffic? In a dedicated lane? Reusing a former railway right-of-way? Sophisticated stations? Simple stops?

This is an LRT station:
pdx-lr-station02.jpg


And this is a metro station:
Bjornsletta-T-bane-03.JPG


Which one do you think is cheaper?
 

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It is interesting that the per-km costs (for both subways and LRTs) vary a lot from one city to another; even for cities ithin the same region (say, Europe) where the labour wages and the cost of materials are not vastly different.

Obviously, many factors affect the cost. It would be interesting if someone quantified those factors.
The Toronto LRT prices are all in, including vehicles and vehicle yards. If anything the vehicles are more expensive than subway vehicles, and the yards aren't any cheaper. as this represents about 40% to 50% of the cost of Finch, that could well be a lot of the price difference compared to other cities. If you exclude the yards and vehicles, we'd be a lot closer to 9:1.
 
The Toronto LRT prices are all in, including vehicles and vehicle yards. If anything the vehicles are more expensive than subway vehicles, and the yards aren't any cheaper. as this represents about 40% to 50% of the cost of Finch, that could well be a lot of the price difference compared to other cities. If you exclude the yards and vehicles, we'd be a lot closer to 9:1.

The cost of tunnelling is higher than the cost of laying track on the street.. Who woulda thunk it...........
 
It was certainly subway in the late 1980s when the Toronto Start was, if you recall, giving it so much coverage in the newspaper. And it was subway in the 1960s and early 1970s when it was still due in 1980.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some other proposals quickly forgotten in between.

So in 30 years, will someone be waving the Doug Ford plan for a monorail down Front Street East and down Commissioners Street under our noses and telling us that had been the original plan for the Queens Quay East streetcar (or whatever they end up building).

It’s a bit disingenuous to say "it was a subway" for all of the 60s and 70s, or that other proposals were "quickly forgotten". There were a multitude of plans, with ICTS and a streetcar subway on Queen being quite prominent in the 60s and 70s. Ed Levy’s book gives a pretty solid chronological breakdown. From a quick skim, we have:

-1966 TTC plan (which resurrected a 1946 plan) for underground streetcars along Queen
-1973 TTC plan where Eglinton is ICTS and DRL as subway
-1972-1975 Prov plan where the DRL was to be GO Urban (i.e - some form of ICTS)
-1971 and onwards Metro plan where the DRL was to be ICTS (this was later switched to a commuter rail line). This again switched to a Prov and Metro plan for two lines – commuter line and "Urban rail Line"
-1976 No DRL, but Richmond Hill line ID’d.
-Then I guess the plans in the 80s where it was subway, then ICTS, then subway again.

As for the Doug Ford plan you brought up, it should be pretty obvious that was commissioned from a private developer (I believe the owner of the old Home Deport lands), and in no way compares to something commissioned by the TTC, City, Metro, or the Prov (i.e – real plans from governments). That being said, I do believe the TTC looked at various modes when studying the East Bayfront and Port Lands corridor. IIRC Drum118 posted a chart he had which ID’d the worthiness of different modes (incl monorail). So I’m assuming the private developers worked off that.
 
It’s a bit disingenuous to say "it was a subway" for all of the 60s and 70s, or that other proposals were "quickly forgotten". There were a multitude of plans, with ICTS and a streetcar subway on Queen being quite prominent in the 60s and 70s.
Is it? I don't even recall the ICTS proposal, or the streetar subway from the 1960s. If TTC was looking at a streetcar subway in 1966, it was quickly abandoned, given their 1968 subway plan.

As for the Doug Ford plan you brought up, it should be pretty obvious that was commissioned from a private developer (I believe the owner of the old Home Deport lands), and in no way compares to something commissioned by the TTC, City, Metro, or the Prov...
Sure it is, if it was presented publicly, and other plans were never publicly presented, but merely dismissed with reports buried in the archives completely forgotten other than to provide troll bait.
 

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