[SunriseChampion]

No offence, Admiral Beeze, but your comment about "spoiled" ballots is ridiculous.

Apparently, I've been spoiling most ballots since I was 18. Silly me, this whole time I thought I was voting for people who best represent my views.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's like some people forget history. John Tory had pledged to fund religious schools out of sense of fairness. Yet, he gets lambasted as some right-wing kook for that. If he was really right-wing, he would have promised charter schools and funding that follows the student, giving parents the option to top up. That would have ended up subsidising all those private school kids. He didn't go that far. And that's a policy lots of those on the right advocate.

He's a fairly middle of the road conservative. He'd probably fit into the Liberal party just as easily. Really, he's closer to Paul Martin than Mike Harris.

I don't get the idea that he's some hard rightist just because he doesn't support all kinds of leftist policies. I would suggest here that if he actually supported many of those leftist policies, he'd be faring worse in the polls.

Finally, I think it may be a function of this forum, but sometimes I think people here don't actually talk to anybody in the suburbs. Smart Track was always going to be popular because one of the biggest issues for any suburbanite (after income) is commute time. Regardless of what you think of the feasibility of his plan, Tory has made a pitch that his plan will cut commute times notably. Chow's plan basically says she'll build something in the next 10-20 years that might knock 10-15 minutes off the average suburban commute. In the meantime, 10% more buses. That's how Chow's plan comes across in the suburbs. I really don't get why people thought that she would fare better with this plan.

I'm just happy that suburbanites aren't voting for Ford. Incidentally, I don't even think that's because of his policies. It's just disgust at the lack of progress and because RoFo made Toronto look so awful. And that's actually why DoFo might still have a chance.

 

[kEiThZ]

So whoever doesn't vote Tory are uninformed voters. Chow is not an alternative because she's NPD. I guess Ari Goldkind doesn't count as an alternative for centrists.

Let's be clear, Ari Goldkind isn't mainstream. And DarnDirtyApe is right. Chow is too far to the left for most. Heck, she's the wife of a former NDP leader and was herself a former NDP MP. Let's say you're right of centre. It'll be a hard proposition to vote for her.

On the other side, the Fords have no credibility and actually scare the crap out of centrists. That leaves few options.

So in this election, Tory just has the bigger tent. He can draw in those who are left and right of centre and even some on the hard right who can't stand the Fords.

Chow takes the left and some who are left of centre. She'll have a time picking up votes on the right of centre or the right.

 

[Kat_YYZ]

maybe it's a bit out of context, but that statement sucks big time

voting for the candidate one feels is best suited for the job is NOT spoiling one's ballot

sheeeeit, i wish there were no polls at all, so this type of evil thinking would shrivel up and die

+1

and same for all the "too leftist/rightist" "this person is too far to your right/left for you to vote for them" stuff. how about just listening to what people have to say and seeing if you agree with it? Crazy, I know.

 

[nfitz]

Regardless of what you think of the feasibility of his plan, Tory has made a pitch that his plan will cut commute times notably.

How will it cut commute times noticeable from what Premier Wynne and Metrolinx have already committed to? Other than a couple of extra stations, there is little here. The DRL that Councillor Ford and Olivia Chow support would both seem to carry more riders, and cut the commute time for more people.

Chow is too far to the left for most. Heck, she's the wife of a former NDP leader and was herself a former NDP MP. Let's say you're right of centre. It'll be a hard proposition to vote for her.

How is this any different that Chow being the former Conservative leader and was also a former Conservative MPP. Let's say you are left of centre. It'll be a hard proposition to vote for him.

The problem in this election is we have two right-wing candidates (Tory and Ford), one left-wing candidate (Chow), and no centrists.

 

[WislaHD]

The problem in this election is we have two right-wing candidates (Tory and Ford), one left-wing candidate (Chow), and no centrists.

And yet all the centrists are gathering around Tory. How could it be?

 

[SunriseChampion]

+1

and same for all the "too leftist/rightist" "this person is too far to your right/left for you to vote for them" stuff. how about just listening to what people have to say and seeing if you agree with it? Crazy, I know.

Well, that's the problem: a great number of people are so ideologically rigid that they will vote not for ideas, but for the appearance of ideas and policies. People will vote for a colour because they think it stands for something, sometimes to their own detriment. Don't try figuring it out...it's rather mind-numbing. Though, I will say that the psychology of politics greatly interests me.

 

[nfitz]

And yet all the centrists are gathering around Tory. How could it be?

My theory is that Tory basically agrees with just about everyone. On everything. Most of the time. This has been documented.

It's why the right-wing (other than the real hardcore) and the soft lefties all think he agrees with them, and think he's a centrist.

I'm not sure Tory knows where he really stands on half these issues ... it's no wonder that we don't.

 

[ehlow]

Well, if the polls are accurate, then it seems safe to say that Chow's NDP & "tax & spend" reputation has probably hurt her more than Tory's Conservative party association.

This is still the same city that elected Rob Ford, so I would think that a large segment of the population does want some fiscal conservatism in the message.

I also think Tory is more central and less extreme in his positions than Ford.

 

[nfitz]

Well, if the polls are accurate, then it seems safe to say that Chow's NDP & "tax & spend" reputation has probably hurt her more than Tory's Conservative party association.

Probably a fair statement. Judging by the comments made by Ford supporters and the graffiti on campaign signs, racism has also played a roll.

This is still the same city that elected Rob Ford, so I would think that a large segment of the population does want some fiscal conservatism in the message.

NDP have been fiscally conservative for years. This is the same city that also elected the most left-wing Liberal in years as Premier, endorsing the HST, and various Liberal tax increases.

I also think Tory is more central and less extreme in his positions than Ford.

Well, he's more pragmatic. Not sure saying someone is less extreme and central than Ford is saying much.

 

[Admiral Beez]

maybe it's a bit out of context, but that statement sucks big time

voting for the candidate one feels is best suited for the job is NOT spoiling one's ballot

sheeeeit, i wish there were no polls at all, so this type of evil thinking would shrivel up and die

Spoiling is perhaps the wrong word, perhaps having to consider the unintended consequences of one's choice would be better. For example, do you think the 95,482 people who voted for Joey Pants in 2010 had intended for their vote to get Ford elected? Had they instead voted for Smitherman, Ford's 383,501 voters would have been overwhelmed.

Once we have ranked ballots, the notion of having to consider the intended consequences of voting ones conscious regardless of impact will be eliminated.

 

[r937]

Once we have ranked ballots...

oh frabjous day!

apropos the topic of this thread, here's my pretend ranked ballot for this mayoral election

1. ari goldkind
2. morgan baskin
3. olivia chow
4. john tory
5.
6.
what, no liar or bully? AHAHAHAHAHA

 

[picard102]

NDP have been fiscally conservative for years. This is the same city that also elected the most left-wing Liberal in years as Premier, endorsing the HST, and various Liberal tax increases.

Maybe they recall how as a councilor Chow had one of the higher budgets, or how she wanted to borrow to the limit and default on loans. Or how she opposed cutting perks for Councilors, and cuts to Councilors salary. Maybe it's how she billed the taxpayers an an MP for a promotional mailer just before she resigned as MP and ran for Mayor, or spending $86,000 on photocopies.

Could be any number of things that would give people the perception that she's loose with the public purse.

 

[salsa]

Let's be clear, Ari Goldkind isn't mainstream. And DarnDirtyApe is right. Chow is too far to the left for most. Heck, she's the wife of a former NDP leader and was herself a former NDP MP. Let's say you're right of centre. It'll be a hard proposition to vote for her.

On the other side, the Fords have no credibility and actually scare the crap out of centrists. That leaves few options.

So in this election, Tory just has the bigger tent. He can draw in those who are left and right of centre and even some on the hard right who can't stand the Fords.

Chow takes the left and some who are left of centre. She'll have a time picking up votes on the right of centre or the right.

I don't disagree with that. I myself am a centrist who usually doesn't vote NDP, but unfortunately the leading candidates in this election have been nothing short of disappointing. I would abandon Chow in a heartbeat if Tory was less unpalatable for me, or if Ari had a chance to win.

 

[nfitz]

Spoiling is perhaps the wrong word, perhaps having to consider the unintended consequences of one's choice would be better. For example, do you think the 95,482 people who voted for Joey Pants in 2010 had intended for their vote to get Ford elected? Had they instead voted for Smitherman, Ford's 383,501 voters would have been overwhelmed.

The combined total of Smitherman and Pantalone's vote was only 385,314. I'm not sure that's overwhelmed is the right word. Also, I'd expect at least some of Pantalone's vote go to Ford or another candidate rather than Smitherman - Pantalone would have had to have moved over 98% of his support to Smitherman to beat Ford.