[kEiThZ]

Does Tory support The Big Move 2.0?

Does Chow? She did drag up a NIMBY beside Agincourt to complain about track expansion. Does that mean she won't support expanded service along Stouffville?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Because the 905 does not fund the TTC. As for SmartTrack, given that it is nothing more than GO RER with a stupid name and an unrealistic and unnecessary number of stations running parallel to the BD extension, it is not clear why city revenues should be (apparently) funding it exclusively.

You're right, it's not. Especially since John Tory said that 1/3 of the funding will be TIF and the other 2/3 from the province and Feds and never explicitly said it's a TTC project. So....good point?

Obviously you're right the 905 doesn't fund the TTC but that's part of a larger problem that I suspect (or at least hope) will soon be remedied through fare integration etc. It sure would be nice to take away the excuses people have for protecting their little fiefdoms at the expense of transit riders.

People in Markham are welcome to take GO downtown. There is much to be said for a regionally integrated transit strategy, but the kind of one-off, poorly thought out SmarkTrack proposals do not serve this. Does Tory support The Big Move 2.0?

That's a fair-ish question except (much to my frustration) NONE of the candidates have even acknowledged the existence of the Big Move, far as I can tell. That said, SmartTrack comes closest to a tacit endorsement. I suspect that even if Campaign John Tory doesn't acknowledge it, Real John Tory does. Beyond that, you'd have to ask him.

As for the first part of the your, um statement, let me just say THANK YOU! No, I'm not the mayor but I think I speak for all Markhamites when I say they're grateful to you for deigning to dictate which transit service you feel is appropriate for them to use. No choice for you, Markham! Car or GO train and don't even ASK about the Yonge subway extension.

As thanks, the people of Markham would like to say that from now on Torotnonians can stick to the TTC and stay off of GO. All stations in Toronto (except Union) will henceforth be closed. TTC is for Toronto and GO is for those 905 suburbanites, dontcha know.

Seems rather pretentious to presume to think that you were "educating" me.

It does! And yet you implied that SmartTrack was entirely funded by Toronto so........

Tory spent the first half of the campaign criticizing Chow for not being sufficiently supportive of the DRL, then flip-flopped into his SmartTrack plan, which entails GO RER mediated through a map-on-a-napkin with unworkable financing. Now he doesn't even list the DRL amongst his "top" priorities (SmartTrack and the BD extension). He also completely backtracked on his earlier calls - as head of CivicAction - for revenue tools for transit funding, now favouring what could best be described as "speculative" TIF sources.

I'm not sure what your point is here....He was a bit wishy washy on that whole "I only said *A* relief line, not *the* relief line, " I grant you. But he didn't really flip-flop on it. And, look, if you want to hammer him on its obvious shortcomings, you do that. I can't shoot holes in all of them. But here's my prediction:
-Mayor Tory will commission a report from staff
-It will get bumped up to Metrolinx
-They'll say it can't be done quite that way but they're already doing RER so, hey, we can kinda-sorta do it
-It will be funded through the $15B coming to Metrolinx and, if we're lucky, new revenue tools
-It will be underway but not nearly finished in 7 years
-The DRL will also happen
-Life will go on

FWIW, I'm totally with you on the revenue tools; I was disappointed in how he shifted there. I take some solace in the notion he does actually support them deep down and it will be Wynne's decision to make anyway. If Olivia hadn't been so wishy washy on them a strong stance would have swayed me more towards her. But she was, so it didn't.

 

[hper]

I often wish for a character limit here on UT.

Yes, of course. Along with seeing other threads shut down by certain dates.

You should run for MOD.

 

[hper]

But, to come back on thread, the fact that it's not their "purview," doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Mayor of Toronto acknowledging that the city is not an island and indeed its economic future is very much interlinked with those of its suburbs. So scolding Tory for having the temerity to have a line that terminates outside the city is beyond absurd to me.

Just out of curiosity, why "purview" (in quotes)? Isn't JGHall, when asking "one wonders why it should be in the purview of Toronto City Council to make up solutions for regional GTA transportation" using the actual meaning of the word: the scope of the influence or concerns of something? Or is there some other reason for the quote marks?

Or is the selective focus on *that word* just a rhetorical pat-on-the-head to demonstrate how wrong the apparently correct usage actually was?

 

[JGHali]

Oh yes, that's right - the province and the feds are being assumed to contribute 2/3 of the cost. How many billions is that? Who's responsible for operating costs? Cost overruns? Either way, everyone in the province pays for GO. The province gives the TTC nothing toward operating costs ever since Harris eliminated the provincial subsidy.

As for Tory's flip-flop, you are being, ahem, disingenuous. Tory was attacking Chow for not being committed to the DRL to such a degree that he had (let?) Kouvalis come up with the ridiculous Twister stunt. The website is even still up!

The Grid covered this back in May

1. First, there’s this interview, sent to reporters by Olivia Chow‘s campaign, which Tory gave to Kiss 92.5′s Roz and Mocha shortly after declaring his candidacy. Asked for a hypothetical route for his relief line, Tory outlined a path that sounded an awful lot like the one that’s commonly associated with a DRL.

2. On a tele-town hall in April, a Tory staffer introduced a caller with a question about the route for a “downtown relief line.” Tory began by saying that politicians shouldn’t draw up transit routes, but said the city line needed an alternate path downtown, as well as into North York, Scarborough, and Etobicoke. “We need to have a relief line that does that,” Tory said. He added that the relief line would likely run up either side of Yonge Street, and that past proposals have shown it intersecting with the Bloor-Danforth subway.

3. Chow’s campaign also cited this Toronto Sun column, in which Tory seems to conflate a DRL and a YRL. Whoever wrote Tory’s piece said that Chow would not complete a “YRL” until 2031. What Chow had been talking about was, again, what’s usually referred to as a DRL.

4. Finally, consider an April 14 press conference, where Tory said that experts had identified a “Yonge Street relief line” as the city’s top transit priority. Experts have said that a relief line should be a priority, but they’re referring to a DRL, and not anything resembling Tory’s SmartTrack.

You could be forgiven for concluding that Tory was saying he would build what is often called a downtown relief line. If you believe otherwise, you also have to assume that Tory was promising something completely different from a DRL and choosing, for whatever reason, not to make that clear. This makes no sense.

There's also the little matter of stuff like Eglinton Connects. From a Sun article in April:

But he also vowed to sink the $150 million Eglinton Connects proposal that would reduced lanes along the road once the Eglinton Crosstown LRT is finished by adding bike lanes and streetscape improvements.

Tory rolled out his “Fighting Gridlock Initiative” on Thursday at a home near Eglinton Ave. E. and Bayview Ave.

“(Gridlock) is something that I’m absolutely determined to do something about,” Tory said after speaking with three women about their fight with congestion.

“People are just not able to get to and from work and to and from home. And it is causing them to be away from their families and to be frustrated and to be stressed and I just do not find that acceptable.”

Tory’s “practical solutions” for gridlock include:

- Exploring how Lake Ontario could be used for commuting (i.e. water taxis)

- Keeping the elevated portion of the Gardiner Expwy. that connects to the Don Valley Pkwy.

- Cancelling the yet-to-be funded $150 million Eglinton Connects plan

- Aligning traffic and road construction to avoid making gridlock worse

- Taking a stronger approach to parking enforcement during rush hour

Tory's record in this campaign alone speaks of no consistent policies or principles, along with an eagerness to attack other candidates for not making his once priority "Yonge Relief Line" a priority. Now he no longer even lists the DRL amongst his top priorities (as he said in his scrum last night). He has weaselled around about the Sheppard and Finch LRTs, failing even to answer a direct question about them last night except that he wouldn't "open the debate" again. Whatever that means.

And Eglinton Connects? What is his position really?

And what about Tory's inexplicable opposition to the set of service improvements proposed by the TTC? As evidenced here:

Tory noted that he has himself proposed some of the options on the list, such as “queue-jump” right-turn lanes to help buses skip ahead of traffic. But he criticized the TTC for not explaining how to cover the bill.

“I just think you can’t run big organizations that way, whether it be the TTC or the government,” he said. “We can’t anymore. Where you have reports that are put forward talking about things that could be done, with a big price tag, but with no idea whatsoever as to how they’re going to be paid for.”

As Karen Stintz correctly pointed out in that article, it's not the TTC's job to determine the city budget process or allocations.

But, sure, Tory is "centrist" and "experienced" (though certainly not in government let alone municipal government). Why people are content to wait for "Real" John Tory to show up to replace "Campaign" John Tory is beyond me, apart from an undue credulity and seeming faith that a professional waffler and civic dilettante will help usher in a clean break with the Ford circus. You think Tory supports revenue tools "deep down"? Does he even know? Because I'm not sure.

 

[JGHali]

But, to come back on thread, the fact that it's not their "purview," doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Mayor of Toronto acknowledging that the city is not an island and indeed its economic future is very much interlinked with those of its suburbs. So scolding Tory for having the temerity to have a line that terminates outside the city is beyond absurd to me.

Going back to this, it's one thing for a Toronto mayor (or mayoral candidate) to push for expanded GO RER in the 416 with fare integration. It's quite something else to draw lines on a map (literally on Eglinton), while plunking down a bunch of stations in Scarborough as a pandering move, and also claiming that something like SmartTrack will do anything for YUS crowding. By all means, have a conversation on regional transit and push for ambitious integration. I agree with that. But I don't like flip-flopping and I don't like plans that make little detailed sense that rely on entirely unrealistic funding models.

 

[adma]

It's looking like all four major journals / tabloids etc. are endorsing John Tory for mayor. The Post is going about it in a strange sort of way, gotta say.

Anyway, take that, DuhFo.

Though it'd be worth monitoring the "ethnic" media--if you're going to find DoFo editorial endorsement anywhere, it *might* be there...

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Just out of curiosity, why "purview" (in quotes)? Isn't JGHall, when asking "one wonders why it should be in the purview of Toronto City Council to make up solutions for regional GTA transportation" using the actual meaning of the word: the scope of the influence or concerns of something? Or is there some other reason for the quote marks?

You're reading too much in. I just quoted it cuz it's the word that was used. Shrug.

Oh yes, that's right - the province and the feds are being assumed to contribute 2/3 of the cost. How many billions is that? Who's responsible for operating costs? Cost overruns? Either way, everyone in the province pays for GO. The province gives the TTC nothing toward operating costs ever since Harris eliminated the provincial subsidy.

My understanding is the total cost is $7B and so the non-city share is like $5B but I don't take any of those numbers at face value. Operating costs? I dunno. Is it a TTC project? A Metrolinx project? Does anyone know?
I think the RER should be Metrolinx but as for "SmartTrack"....it's a mystery, I am happy to grant.

As for Tory's flip-flop, you are being, ahem, disingenuous. Tory was attacking Chow for not being committed to the DRL to such a degree that he had (let?) Kouvalis come up with the ridiculous Twister stunt. The website is even still up!

Yeah, I don't approve of everything Tory has said or done I don't know if there's a single politician who I 100% agree with. I'm disappointed in how all the candidates have handled this issue and that includes Tory.
My personal POV is that while Toronto obviously has priorities and should that we have a regional transit plan and it's time to take the planning away from politicians and local municipalities. Particularly because Toronto's transit system is obviously so much larger than the others it's really easy to pretend the others simply don't exist. So I applaud SmartTrack, not as some genius solution to regional relief or for its brilliant innovation but for at least tying in to the general idea of building off the provincial plan and using existing infrastructure.

As I may have mentioned (and as you might know anyway) Metrolinx is looking at the DRL and the RER and a bunch of other things to improve the network and take pressure off Yonge. I don't know how far TO council can take Smart Track without 2/3 of the funding (even assuming the TIFs work which....doubt it) and I think it would be pretty stupid for them to de-prioritize the DRL.

Everyone got on Kim Campbell for saying campaigns aren't the place to discuss ideas (paraphrasing, though I now recall of course it was Tory running her campaign!) and whether it's your Twister game or Chow going on and on about Mt. Dennis, the way transit has been discussed in this campaign proves it. Obviously Tory's financing plan is built on some quicksand but the other candidates (save Goldkind) didn't do much better.
Naturally the Ford plan is so absurd it doesn't bear discussion at all.

But, sure, Tory is "centrist" and "experienced" (though certainly not in government let alone municipal government). Why people are content to wait for "Real" John
Tory to show up to replace "Campaign" John Tory is beyond me, apart from an undue credulity and seeming faith that a professional waffler and civic dilettante will help usher in a clean break with the Ford circus. You think Tory supports revenue tools "deep down"? Does he even know? Because I'm not sure.

The mayor's job is to set an agenda and build consensus; it's not like baseball where you have to work your way through the minors. As I said, it's not that I don't have issues at all with John Tory but I certainly no have concerns he has the skills to do the job. I think he's done far too much for the city to call him a dilletante and I don't particular but the waffling thing either. For all his flaws, I have no doubt he actually cares about the city and wants to do the right thing (and I think the same can be said of Chow). I can't prove he supports the revenue tools "deep down" but I've heard him speak about it in person and I know he's an intelligent guy not governed by his ideology the way the Fords are.

I think Kathleen Wynne totally gets it too but out of political cowardice (or necessity; whatever) she hasn't pulled the trigger. Eventually people here are going to have to clue in to the inevitable and I wish Tory had taken the lead there, the way he was doing before he threw his hat in the ring. So, yes, I think he gets it. Maybe I'll turn out to be wrong but I'm judging him on more than just this campaign.

That's my two cents.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

on a lighter note, did anyone post this yet? It's quite chuckleworthy...

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/2014-toronto-mayoral-election-943

 

[freshcutgrass]

Obviously you're right the 905 doesn't fund the TTC but that's part of a larger problem that I suspect (or at least hope) will soon be remedied through fare integration etc. It sure would be nice to take away the excuses people have for protecting their little fiefdoms at the expense of transit riders.

The reason the TTC is in a complete different universe than 905 transit, is solely due to the fact that the City of Toronto is only concerned with public transit within its borders (jurisdiction). That's what municipal governments exist for and it is inappropriate for them to waste time on anything outside of their jurisdiction. That's what Provincial or regional governments are for. Someone should mention this to Tory.

As I said, pretty much everything you need to know about Tory can be gleaned from his SmartTrack scheme. Just need to look carefully and it's all there.

I think he just got tired of pretending to be Premier on his radio show, and wants to pretend to be Premier from the mayor's chair at Toronto City Hall.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Going back to this, it's one thing for a Toronto mayor (or mayoral candidate) to push for expanded GO RER in the 416 with fare integration. It's quite something else to draw lines on a map (literally on Eglinton), while plunking down a bunch of stations in Scarborough as a pandering move, and also claiming that something like SmartTrack will do anything for YUS crowding.

Not only that, apparently something like half the ridership of the BD line is going to be riding this new commuter train (like 200,000 ridership claimed). All that with PEAK frequencies of 15 minutes. I think the estimated ridership numbers are BS....especially since it will never be built to Tory's plans.

Ford's unfunded and operationally unsustainable subways might be a joke, but at least it's proper inner-city mass transit...not Tory's suburban commuter train.

 

[freshcutgrass]

on a lighter note, did anyone post this yet? It's quite chuckleworthy...

http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/2014-toronto-mayoral-election-943

You're right, it is...

The lynchpin of Tory’s platform is his transit plan, called SmartTrack. It’s so instrumental to his campaign that it even appears on his yard signs. The message seems clear: voting for John Tory is voting for SmartTrack.

Others have been more exhaustive, poking substantial holes in the plan. So the question is essentially reducible to this: if John Tory is SmartTrack, and SmartTrack is a poor, impractical plan (more like…DumbTrack), then isn’t voting for John Tory stupid?

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

People need to get over the campaign SmartTrack and start considering how the post-campaign SmartTrack will look like.

I envision GO RER with more stations in the 416 and fare integration, and that to me sounds great.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yes, of course. Along with seeing other threads shut down by certain dates.

You should run for MOD.

Yeah right. The first two idiots I'd ban would be Nfitz and myself.

 

[freshcutgrass]

People need to get over the campaign SmartTrack and start considering how the post-campaign SmartTrack will look like.

I envision GO RER with more stations in the 416 and fare integration, and that to me sounds great.

Right...so what's happening with the TTC then? Seems odd that the frontrunner for mayor says transit is the most important issue, yet has nothing in his current campaign that specifically deals with the city's transit system, except that he supports wasting $1.6 billion of city funding on the 3-stop BD extension.

If it were me, I would have saved the $1.6 billion and presented the 7-stop LRT as an extension of the Eglinton Line, eliminating one of the major issues people had, which is the need to transfer at Kennedy (either the BD or ELRT would have to transfer in any event)