[W. K. Lis]

Are TTC fare jumpers getting a raw deal? Councillor wants 'fine equity' with drivers who park illegally​

From link.

Discrepancy between fines can be hundreds of dollars, says Coun. Paula Fletcher​

Riding the TTC without proving you've paid the proper fare can result in a fine worth hundreds of dollars, according to Coun. Paula Fletcher, while a basic parking ticket is only a $30 fine, a difference she says is unfair. (IVY PHOTOS / Shutterstock)

A Toronto city councillor is calling on city staff to look into correcting what she sees as a serious imbalance in fines levied against those who abuse city services.

City Coun. Paula Fletcher's motion, which comes to council today, calls on the city manager to investigate the discrepancy, amounting to hundreds of dollars, between the fines drivers pay for illegal parking and the much higher fines TTC fare jumpers pay.

"These are staggeringly different amounts," she told CBC Toronto. "We're going to see what the city manager has to say about balancing fines."

People caught riding the TTC without paying the proper fare can face a fine of up to $400, she said, while drivers who park illegally typically only face a $30 fine.

Make fare jumpers pay less, illegal parkers more?​

Should her motion pass, Fletcher said it would be up to city staff determine whether fare jumpers should face lower fines, illegal parkers should pay more or some combination of the two.

Several transit advocates have praised the idea of lowering fines for fare jumpers on the TTC, however not everyone is on board.

Coun. Stephen Holyday, a TTC board member, is dead set against the move.

"You can't tell me that parking a car in a no-parking zone is the same as hopping a turnstile, or using a child Presto card that doesn't ring up costs," he said.

"Much of our society is built on trust...It's kind of like when someone steals a poppy box from a coffee shop counter: You know there may not be a lot of money in it and it's a theft, but it's even more egregious because it's out there in trust that people are going to do the right thing."

He also wondered whether easing penalties for people who flout the TTC 's rules is a good idea right now, given the number of violent incidents on the TTC in recent months.

"It starts with fare evasion, but it can lead to other things. and I think we're hearing that from the public, loud and clear," he said. "I ride transit myself, and there's definitely concerns over security. So the easiest and most straightforward first step is to support the enforcement of fare evasion.

"It shows that the rules matter."

Reducing fines 'long overdue': advocate​

But TTC Riders, a group that advocates for enhanced TTC services for riders and staff, said that need not be a major concern.

Shelagh Pizey-Allen, the group's executive director, said the idea of reducing fines to bring them more in line with what wayward drivers pay is "long overdue."

"There's people in Toronto who cannot afford the TTC," she said.

On top of that she says, "Sometimes a Presto machine is broken. Sometimes if you're trying to reload your Presto card, there's nowhere for you to do it within walking distance; the TTC just stopped selling tokens. Especially in Scarborough, northwest Toronto, there's nowhere you can reload.

"That huge fine is not fair. Plus it has really serious impacts on credit rating and employment."

Fletcher's motion is expected to come up at council this afternoon. It needs a two-thirds majority to make it onto this meeting's agenda. Otherwise it could be referred to a committee for further study.

 

[toaster29]

To willingly and knowingly commit an illegal act by not paying your TTC fare is not the same thing as someone having a Doctor's appointment going over by 5 minutes and not being able to run out in time to the meter to put in an extra dollar or check the GreenP app because they are having a prostate exam.

 

[W. K. Lis]

To willingly and knowingly commit an illegal act by not paying your TTC fare is not the same thing as someone having a Doctor's appointment going over by 5 minutes and not being able to run out in time to the meter to put in an extra dollar or check the GreenP app because they are having a prostate exam.

What about the guys stopping to park for that all important cup of coffee blocking the streetcar, make that streetcars (plural)? How many people on board the streetcars (plural) are inconvenienced? The charge must be more than a fare evasion. Charge should be for each persons (again plural) on board the streetcars (plural).

Happens every year...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1484229162894340096

The parking ticket AND tolling is still less than a fine for fare evasion.

 

[toaster29]

Oh yeah, that's not fun. Maybe different tickets, it's a hard thing to determine. But I think intention here matters, anyone who does not pay TTC is doing that knowingly and on purpose. Someone running out to their car 2 minutes after he meter runs out is not doing that intentionally. If we are going to be soft on TTC Fare Evasion, let's just eliminate fares altogether to stop this nonsense altogether (and try to get people using TTC again.. billions of dollars of infrastructure sitting nowhere near capacity).

Also regarding the notion of drivers getting their "important cup of coffee " I get your point here, but let's be careful to pass judgement on addictions, caffeine is a drug, probably the most common addictive substance. I don't think we would make that point about someone going in to a methadone clinic to feed their addiction as a boorish and lazy driver who just wants to park in the middle of the street to feed their addiction.

 

[toonderly]

But I think intention here matters, anyone who does not pay TTC is doing that knowingly and on purpose. Someone running out to their car 2 minutes after he meter runs out is not doing that intentionally.

What they did intentionally is underestimate how long their errand was going to take, and they justified giving themselves the benefit of the doubt when they paid for the parking instead of adding a cushion to make sure they would definitely get back before the meter ran out because they think they are overpaying if they don't get to use every second they paid for.

I'm sure the fines could also be calculated based on how few or how many minutes the poor well-intentioned driver overstayed the spot and whether the spot was legal. But it feels like we're holding the intentionality of drivers and TTC riders to different standards. When the idle poor become the idle rich and all that.

 

[toaster29]

What they did intentionally is underestimate how long their errand was going to take, and they justified giving themselves the benefit of the doubt when they paid for the parking instead of adding a cushion to make sure they would definitely get back before the meter ran out because they think they are overpaying if they don't get to use every second they paid for.

I'm sure the fines could also be calculated based on how few or how many minutes the poor well-intentioned driver overstayed the spot and whether the spot was legal. But it feels like we're holding the intentionality of drivers and TTC riders to different standards. When the idle poor become the idle rich and all that.

The point you are making about it being intentional doesn't hold up for me, so if there's a massive snow storm or a shooting that causes your car to have to stay on a street for 3 days, it's somehow intentional that you didn't estimate (or predict) that would happen? What might be equivalent is if someone who paid for the TTC fare and went on a transfer after their transfer period was up - that is an honest mistake. There are ways to allow/check for this (check the fare paid either by the timestamp on the Presto, or the actual transfer ticket) and give a lower fee in those circumstances - sure, no problem with that. That would be equivalent to someone who happened to get to their car 5 minutes after the meter expired. But to compare the worst offenders on the TTC with the most innocent drivers (or vice versa ---> there are terrible drivers, and lawful TTC users who unknowingly make mistakes) is irresponsible.

 

[jys]

The point you are making about it being intentional doesn't hold up for me, so if there's a massive snow storm or a shooting that causes your car to have to stay on a street for 3 days, it's somehow intentional that you didn't estimate (or predict) that would happen? What might be equivalent is if someone who paid for the TTC fare and went on a transfer after their transfer period was up - that is an honest mistake. There are ways to allow/check for this (check the fare paid either by the timestamp on the Presto, or the actual transfer ticket) and give a lower fee in those circumstances - sure, no problem with that. That would be equivalent to someone who happened to get to their car 5 minutes after the meter expired. But to compare the worst offenders on the TTC with the most innocent drivers (or vice versa ---> there are terrible drivers, and lawful TTC users who unknowingly make mistakes) is irresponsible.

While I feel sympathetic anyone who overstays by 5 mins, why, might I ask, are you so fixated on the "innocent driver"? How frequent, I ask you, is such a driver compared to with one who deliberately evade paying for parking (perhaps knowing that the fine is not much)?

 

[W. K. Lis]

What they did intentionally is underestimate how long their errand was going to take, and they justified giving themselves the benefit of the doubt when they paid for the parking instead of adding a cushion to make sure they would definitely get back before the meter ran out because they think they are overpaying if they don't get to use every second they paid for.

I'm sure the fines could also be calculated based on how few or how many minutes the poor well-intentioned driver overstayed the spot and whether the spot was legal. But it feels like we're holding the intentionality of drivers and TTC riders to different standards. When the idle poor become the idle rich and all that.

If one uses the Green P app, they add around a few minutes (5 minutes or so) to the time. They also get an alert as the time approaches expiration, allowing them to add time (and paying for that time).

 

[Northern Light]

The point you are making about it being intentional doesn't hold up for me, so if there's a massive snow storm or a shooting that causes your car to have to stay on a street for 3 days, it's somehow intentional that you didn't estimate (or predict) that would happen? What might be equivalent is if someone who paid for the TTC fare and went on a transfer after their transfer period was up - that is an honest mistake. There are ways to allow/check for this (check the fare paid either by the timestamp on the Presto, or the actual transfer ticket) and give a lower fee in those circumstances - sure, no problem with that. That would be equivalent to someone who happened to get to their car 5 minutes after the meter expired. But to compare the worst offenders on the TTC with the most innocent drivers (or vice versa ---> there are terrible drivers, and lawful TTC users who unknowingly make mistakes) is irresponsible.

I think you're completely off-base on this one.

First off, the ticket for illegally parking is not predicated on intent anymore than not paying a fare. Both are absolute liability offenses for which intent is not required. You did or you did not pay. Period.

Second, you seem to be making the assumption that all parking tickets or most tickets are issued to people who did in fact pay, but then failed to return to their car to re-pay again within the requisite time.

In point of fact, these are not the majority of parking tickets. The majority of parking tickets are for parking where no parking is allowed, for parking during permit parking hours where you have no permit and for parking without paying at all.

Third, there is a TTC equivalent, which would be paying for the TTC but overstaying your 2-hour window on the system; but there is no provision for a ticket being waived or reduced in that circumstance, it would be entirely the whim of any fare enforcement officer.

Fourth, the logic of a fine is not simply to discourage behavior, its to make up for lost revenue. So in the name of fairness, in any given instance, you have proof of a loss to TTC of $3.30 for an adult rider. On-street parking (where paid per hour) is often much more than that, per hour. Further, failure to purchase a parking permit is considerably more lost revenue to the City again; so the revenue loss in the case of an unpaid or under-paid parker is mostly likely far greater than the revenue loss to the TTC.

 

[T3G]

Third, there is a TTC equivalent, which would be paying for the TTC but overstaying your 2-hour window on the system; but there is no provision for a ticket being waived or reduced in that circumstance, it would be entirely the whim of any fare enforcement officer.

Wait... there's a time limit for how long you are allowed to stay on the TTC?

Is this new? I've spent many long hours on the TTC on my railfanning journeys and have never been aware of this being a rule before. But then, I've also never encountered a TTC fare inspector, either.

 

[Northern Light]

Wait... there's a time limit for how long you are allowed to stay on the TTC?

Is this new? I've spent many long hours on the TTC on my railfanning journeys and have never been aware of this being a rule before. But then, I've also never encountered a TTC fare inspector, either.

Your Presto Fare is valid for 2 hours from first tap.

 

[T3G]

I assumed that was only for the transfer window time period. At any rate, the TTC's own website states nothing about any obligation to pay another fare if your journey goes over 2 hours. I truly hope there is no wannabe mall cop patrolling the system that would actually dare kick a passenger off because it's been more than 2 hours since their last tap!

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wait... there's a time limit for how long you are allowed to stay on the TTC?

Is this new? I've spent many long hours on the TTC on my railfanning journeys and have never been aware of this being a rule before. But then, I've also never encountered a TTC fare inspector, either.

Since 2018, under Mayor Tory's reign. Click on https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/08/22/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-ttcs-new-2-hour-transfer-policy.html

Depends on when you make your last transfer within that 2 hour limit. If you get on a bus or streetcar before that 2 hour limit, you are fine. If you transfer again after that 2 hour limit, you end up paying another fare.

Unless you get a paper transfer from the subway transfer machines before your expiration time limit. Shh, be quiet about that.

 

[christiesplits]

It's Day 1 and I already want it to be over. And I like politics!

 

[adma]

And honestly, I think that preceding TTC et al discussion in this thread is a distraction from the reality of all the candidates applying today (so far: Hunter, Bradford, Bailao, Saunders, Furey, Mammoliti, Climenhaga, Rob Davis, Saccoccia, etc--though interestingly, of last year's contenders, Blake Acton's the highest-placing to apply so far; no Chloe Brown or Gil yet)