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Why doesn't this line run through Sudbury, too? It has more people than Peterborough!

Maybe the point of building HSR is so it doesn't stop in places along the way that aren't in a straight line between larger centres. If we want a trundling service that isn't direct we can just take VIA.
 
The discussion was about population not distance.
And we had already established that population alone does not move the needle towards either city, didn’t we? And, for the records, my preference is to serve both cities, to unlock Kingston as a hub between Express and Local services and to generate synergies between both cities, which are important university cities and industy clusters…
 
The discussion was about population not distance.

Kingston service may well get souped up with Alto, but I fear run time might get even worse.

And the point about population is not simply how big the city is, but how many are served along the length of the line.

A rail line through Peterborough will not have the benefit of other stops with significant population who can also be served.

(Repeating myself from many past posts) The Kingston hub service, while interesting intellectually, will have all the same problems as the current service has, plus some additional
- No change in the need to share tracks with freight trains on a hostile railroad that has little commitment to reliability or timekeeping
- Potential push to lower track speeds, creating longer trip times
- Lack of pooled revenue and costing with the through T-O-M ridership, meaning the service may be unprofitable and require added subsidy
- Lack of political "sexiness" compared to the inflated HxR project

- Paul
 
And the point about population is not simply how big the city is, but how many are served along the length of the line.

A rail line through Peterborough will not have the benefit of other stops with significant population who can also be served.

(Repeating myself from many past posts) The Kingston hub service, while interesting intellectually, will have all the same problems as the current service has, plus some additional
- No change in the need to share tracks with freight trains on a hostile railroad that has little commitment to reliability or timekeeping
- Potential push to lower track speeds, creating longer trip times
- Lack of pooled revenue and costing with the through T-O-M ridership, meaning the service may be unprofitable and require added subsidy
- Lack of political "sexiness" compared to the inflated HxR project

- Paul
Just to be sure: when I say “Kingston Hub”, I’m referring to a greenfield alignment from Smiths Falls via Kingston to the Havelock Sub near Bonarlaw, following the 401 between Gananoque and Napanee and with links to the Kingston Subdivision (for local trains) in either city. It’s quite similar to what Ecotrain proposed, but continuing to Toronto via Peterborough rather than the Lakeshore:
1546070170748-png.169040
 
Friendly reminder that a straight line from Toronto to Ottawa runs almost through Peterborough:

View attachment 634531
With due respect, as there are a number of good and relevant posts here.

Are we serving the population base and fostering growth, or just dealing in the shortest route to anywhere? Why stop at Peterborough then if you are concerned about run time? Who cares about Peterborough? (You can smile when you read that comment) If so, then connect Peterborough toToronto with a GO train. And run HSR through Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City. And the rest of the provincial cities will have to make do with the underfunded, under equipped, poke along service, that they currently have in VIA. And then watch that service deteriorate from a second class service to a third class service to …?

The 401 corridor is lined with centres with populations of size. Windsor, London, KW all should be included in an HSR line stopping at Pearson before Union. All would be classified as large urban centres.

Kingston is also classified as a large urban centre and perhaps is the focus of a regional hub connecting to an HSR line, although this to seems to have been an idea that is mere lip service to concerned voters.

Building a line through hundreds of miles of bush (and cottage country) without connection, has always made less sense then connecting the line with Kingston, and probably now Oshawa (for Go Train Connections and Eastbound Lakeshore Via).

The Beijing to Shanghai HSR, which I have been lucky enough to ride more then a few times, makes multiple stops, I believe depending on train. There are 24 stations on the line, which runs 800 miles or so. Distance wise it is roughly comparable to Windsor to Quebec City (700 plus miles depending on route). We are looking at 11 or 12 stations (Windsor, London, KW, Guelph re GO? Pearson, Union, Oshawa re GO and Lakeshore VIA, Kingston, also as a HUB for Lakeshore Via and the run to Ottawa, Ottawa as a separate extension connecting with Montreal, Montreal, TR, QC).

I am aware that many posts have been made on this topic. I fully support the idea of HSR along the 401 corridor, with a triangular link to Ottawa and Montreal. But I have always had doubts, and stated them, that HSR will get funded in any meaningful way in the next decade.
 
I am aware that many posts have been made on this topic. I fully support the idea of HSR along the 401 corridor, with a triangular link to Ottawa and Montreal. But I have always had doubts, and stated them, that HSR will get funded in any meaningful way in the next decade.

Really, we need both.

I have always preferred the "Gananoque cutoff" solution, as it enables the creation of a regional rail service that could be really valuable for communities along the lakeshore, while also delivering a service that is just as good (likely better) Toronto-Ottawa.

That solution never found much favour here, because a) it was more expensive than HFR, so in the years where HFR was the going proposal, it ranked lower, and b) there still needed to be a solution for the Liverpool-Kingston section, where continued or expanded operation on CN is problemmatic. and c) being regionally locally focussed, it did not move far enough towards the higher-end solution.

But the upgraded Peterboro-lined HSR proposal makes sense to me also, as a "virtual airport" solution replacing airport capacity at Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and QC only (albeit with the ability to improve first/last mile travel with suburban stops, and providing only enough stopping at Peterborough and Perth to satisfy a not-enormous local demand). The tipping point here is the projected need for investment in airport capacity and at what threshold is a top end HSR cost effective in relation to more airport investment. My gut says the tipping point is there, but it may take years for that to fully emerge. Included in that tipping point is the congestion created in first/last mile travel to airports.... take airport travel off the highways in Montreal and Toronto, and that removes many, many vehicles from the busiest highways.

There is a parallel (in my mind, anyways) to the history of the UP Express - where Ontario built the sexy, boutique solution of an airport express train before it addressed the more mundane question of the local transit capacity running on the same line. For a time we had a pricey airport train that was being appropriated by local commuters.... and then there was pressure to lower fares to support the local commuters.... and only then did ML actually address and add service for the local traffic. And we are still waiting for a true regional/local commuter 2WAD on that line. In hindsight, we should have installed the (mundane, not sexy) GO service first and deferred the (sexy, politically attractive) UP service until the bigger need had been met.

Using that precedent, I would value regional intercity service over the virtual airport. For this reason I would advise an incoming government to invest say $5B in the Gananoque cutoff, and make incremental improvements to Smiths Falls-Ottawa and Ottawa - Montreal serivcces. That investment would throw some fire on the demand for the airport replacement, and would provide more stimulus to more regional development and housing growth - and remove more congestion. And it's affordable, and politically sellable, where HSR may not be under current conditions.

In phases, I would build a new line alongside or close to CN/CPKC between Liverpool and Kingston. The CN line is already triple tracked for a fair ways from Belleville eastwards. Building in phases, say 40 kms every few years, would be affordable and would not trigger the same sticker shock. It might also draw funding from both federal and provincial coffers.

But that's all free advice that Ottawa isn't considering, HSR is likely a go-no go binary decision that turns on who the next government is.

- Paul
 
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Why doesn't this line run through Sudbury, too? It has more people than Peterborough!

Maybe the point of building HSR is so it doesn't stop in places along the way that aren't in a straight line between larger centres. If we want a trundling service that isn't direct we can just take VIA.

What about Brantford and Hamilton when the go west?
The HSR is to serve the populations of Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Quebec City. If we could find a way to move the CN mainline off the Lakeshore,the, yes, Kingstion could be connected. That sounds more fantasy based than most of my ideas. (like daily Via service for all routes.)
 
I’ve tried to sketch down in a Discord post why I think that ALTO will make it easier to provide a passenger rail service along the Kingston Subdivision, which is actually centered on the needs of the Lakeshore communities:

***

To understand the merits of a concept we need to understand the current market and the challenges in adequately serving it.

VIA‘s services in the T-O-M [Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal] triangle serve three distinct geographic markets:
* Primary markets: any travel between MTRL/DORV, OTTW/FALL and TRTO/GUIL (e.g., MTRL-TRTO , OTTW-GUIL or DORV-FALL).
* Secondary markets: any travel between above metropolitan areas and any other city served between them (e.g., MTRL-BLVL, OTTW-KGON or BRKV-TRTO).
* Tertiary markets: any travel between any two cities that are not MTRL/DORV/OTTW/FALL/GUIL/TRTO (e.g., CWLL-KGON, BRKV-PHOP or NAPN-CBRG).

Given that trains are much larger than the 78-seaters Porter and AC use, VIA can‘t rely on a single primary market OD to fill its trains and at the same time, the number of overall slots [i.e., the number of trains Canadian National will tolerate on its tracks] is constrained. Therefore, all of VIA‘s Corridor trains are hybrids, serving two or even three of these markets simultaneously.

Unfortunately, these markets have quite incompatible needs (tertiary markets require frequent stops, which undermine the fast travel times on which especially primary markets depend).

The beauty of HFR is that it merged all primary markets into a single spine (thus serving all 3 of them with a single departure) and to now allow the remaining Lakeshore trains to focus on secondary and primary markets instead.

The strength of intercity trains is usually to link small and medium-sized cities with each other and to foster economic links between them. VIA cannot provide that now, because there is such a high pressure to minimize end-to-end travel times, whereas serving TO [Toronto-Ottawa] and TM [Tironto-Montreal] with distinct services exacerbates train (not: seat) capacity issues.

ALTO (still have to get used to that acronym) will change that, because it takes the primary markets off the Lakeshore and thus provides more flexibility to focus the remaining services around the Lakeshore communities and the secondary and tertiary markets which serve them.

The main benefit of ALTO will be that there will be more connections between the Lakeshore cities (no more TO train stopping in CBRG chasing a TM train stopping in BLVL, as there will be one train stopping at both and even a few additional Lakeshore cities) and trains will be overall more punctual, because now that the end-to-end travel times no longer matters (because primary markets use different trains), trains can be scheduled less aggressively and less frequently, thus drastically reducing the interference with freight traffic, as slower and less frequent trains swim much better within the freight traffic…


***

With all of the above said, the post-ALTO service offered on the Kingston Subdivision will depend on whichever constraints and incentives the operator faces…
 
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HSR is supposed to compete with air travel between the three cities. It needs to be fast or else it won't succeed. Stopping at Peterborough does slightly work against this goal but only at the cost of a simple station stop. Kingston introduces a station stop AND a diversion, making the trip no longer competitive against air, defeating the entire purpose.
 
HSR is supposed to compete with air travel between the three cities. It needs to be fast or else it won't succeed. Stopping at Peterborough does slightly work against this goal but only at the cost of a simple station stop. Kingston introduces a station stop AND a diversion, making the trip no longer competitive against air, defeating the entire purpose.
If the angle from which you are looking at this is that there is a fixed budget for ALTO, then any dollar spend on “diverting” at least some trains via Peterborough is one which can’t be spend on minimizing the end-to-end travel time.

However, if you assume that there is a fixed budget for ALTO and reviving passenger rail service to Peterborough, then every dollar spent on extending GO to Peterborough can’t be spent on ALTO. And when looking at both priorities combined, the incremental capital and operating cost of diverting ALTO via Peterborough is a small fraction (as in: maybe one of magnitude lower?) of what a new 100 km long GO corridor through virtually uninhabited land (great for construction and for operating ontercity trains, very bad for operating commuter trains) would incur…
 
I am fully expecting a GO line between Union and Peterborough. The good thing is, it could be a 2WAD from the start and allow people to go to Peterborough to get to Union faster.That is a side benefit of having HSR there.
 
Query, why does it have to be only 2 tracks? how much more expensive would it be to do like 4 tracks? do express and local service then?
 
Query, why does it have to be only 2 tracks? how much more expensive would it be to do like 4 tracks? do express and local service then?
In an ideal world, that would be wonderful. Actually, 5tracksso that freight could operate along it too. The issue becomes cost.

For the Lakeshore Sub, it would need 6trackswith the amount of traffic. Could it fit 6 tracks?
 
I just think everyone deserves HSR. Why not build one corridor to hit Peterborough Ottawa Montreal, Quebec City. And another brockville. Kingston, Belleville, Quebec City.

It would also be great if we could have one last stop to Halifax that way we don’t need to buy sleeper car rides at $755 a person.

The train service combined with the low ticket prices of a GO train cost ticket to Ottawa to help create housing affordability will encourage everyone to use rails. Then we can replace the freight lines with transport trucks on the 401 because it won’t be used as much now that we’re all rail fans.
 

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