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The government's release talks about speeds "up to 300km/hour". I suspect a lot of the old O&Q ROW between Havelock and Glen Tay will be unsuitable for adaptation for those speeds. Even for the flatter, more open portions, cutting through towns, villages and settlements won't be suitable, even for lower 'high speeds'. I'm not surprised the mayor of Peterborough doesn't want the line cutting through the city. With Pickering now dead, he no doubt has an eye to the expansion potential with having passenger rail near their airport.
 
I'm a little late to the price/cost debate, but for what it's worth, the first two cost are for one-way travel from Tokyo to Osaka by high speed train (the remainder are for air).
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The Mayor of Peterborough seems to want ALTO to bypass the city to the south based on this comment

Leal said a local station could be located near the Peterborough Airport, which belongs to the city, though it is in neighbouring Cavan Monaghan Township. Leal points out it would allow the tracks to cross the Otonabee River at its narrowest point.
“That makes good construction sense,” Leal said. “That will be to the south of the city and would provide a more regional stop for the entire region.”


Great idea for out of town drivers, terrible idea for everyone else

Id imagine discussions with all communities along the route will happen to figure out where to place the station and tracks. If the section between Toronto and Ottawa is to have a slower speed 'milk run' then having more stations near the communities makes sense.

The government's release talks about speeds "up to 300km/hour". I suspect a lot of the old O&Q ROW between Havelock and Glen Tay will be unsuitable for adaptation for those speeds. Even for the flatter, more open portions, cutting through towns, villages and settlements won't be suitable, even for lower 'high speeds'. I'm not surprised the mayor of Peterborough doesn't want the line cutting through the city. With Pickering now dead, he no doubt has an eye to the expansion potential with having passenger rail near their airport.
The good thing is, for much of that ROW,most of it is rural, so straightening it out may not be that big of a challenge as we think. My thinking is they will first decide on station and then connect them with the best route they can.
 
The government's release talks about speeds "up to 300km/hour". I suspect a lot of the old O&Q ROW between Havelock and Glen Tay will be unsuitable for adaptation for those speeds. Even for the flatter, more open portions, cutting through towns, villages and settlements won't be suitable, even for lower 'high speeds'. I'm not surprised the mayor of Peterborough doesn't want the line cutting through the city. With Pickering now dead, he no doubt has an eye to the expansion potential with having passenger rail near their airport.
The fact that it'll take 3 hours for the TOR-MTL leg telegraphs that it won't be fully 300 km/hour throughout but rather a mix. Previous HSR estimates indicated~ 2.5 hrs for TOR-MTL.
 
The fact that it'll take 3 hours for the TOR-MTL leg telegraphs that it won't be fully 300 km/hour throughout but rather a mix. Previous HSR estimates indicated~ 2.5 hrs for TOR-MTL.

The shortest highway route T-O is 404km. The shortest O-M highway route is 198km. Total is 600km. At 300km, that is 2 hours. An extra half hour for stops makes sense. I am wondering where those slower sections will be.
 
The government's release talks about speeds "up to 300km/hour". I suspect a lot of the old O&Q ROW between Havelock and Glen Tay will be unsuitable for adaptation for those speeds. Even for the flatter, more open portions, cutting through towns, villages and settlements won't be suitable, even for lower 'high speeds'. I'm not surprised the mayor of Peterborough doesn't want the line cutting through the city. With Pickering now dead, he no doubt has an eye to the expansion potential with having passenger rail near their airport.

Peterborough. I can't be the only person who got on Google with conceptual crayons. There are several possibilities. Keeping the existing route requires kilometers of grade separations, and going overland past the airport is a lot of land acquisition and road severance. The Bypass is sitting there with about 60 feet of space between the directions, enough for building a partly elevated structure without too much disruption. This spot near The Parkway and Fisher is already on two bus routes and is about 4 km from downtown. There is already a park and ride/carpool parking log nearby, and parking for the Toronto-bound could be added.

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I would personally think a downtown station is the best option, but I have no idea what the locals think about the issue. I would guess most have not thought much about the realities of the existing route because no concrete proposals have been put out there. Nothing focuses the mind like renderings of a viaduct running past your back yard.
 
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Peterborough. I can't be the only person who got on Google with conceptual crayons. There are several possibilities. Keeping the existing route requires kilometers of grade separations, and going overland past the airport is a lot of land acquisition and road severance. The Bypass is sitting there with about 60 feet of space between the directions, enough for building a partly elevated structure without too much disruption. This spot near The Parkway and Fisher is already on two bus routes and is about 4 km from downtown. There is already a park and ride/carpool parking log nearby, and parking for the Toronto-bound could be added.

View attachment 632194

I would personally think a downtown station is the best option, but I have no idea what the locals think about the issue. I would guess most have not thought much about the realities of the existing route because no concrete proposals have been put out there. Nothing focuses the mind like renderings of a viaduct running past your back yard.
Downtown would be expensive and difficult given the cost of all the grade separations. It would also increase travel times as trains would have to slow down to navigate the tighter turns to get downtown, all for what is really a very minor stop on the line serving an area with almost universal auto ownership.

Remember that 300km/h rail needs railway curves to be in the minimum of around 4km radius - even what you drew there is nowhere close to what is required. I would be surprised if Peterborough station doesn't end up as a station in the rural area south of the City.

What you drew there may be a worthwhile effort to place the station somewhere which is still convenient while still sacrificing a small amount of speed, but we'll see I guess..

Wherever the station does end up, it will be an excellent commuting option for those working in Toronto, so I would hope to see some planning for transit oriented development around it.
 
I'm a little late to the price/cost debate, but for what it's worth, the first two cost are for one-way travel from Tokyo to Osaka by high speed train (the remainder are for air).

Just to translate the currency for people.

The two train trips are in the ballpark of $135 CAD

While the flights are more in the $350 CAD price range, (based on picking a number in the middle of those listed)
 
Peterborough. I can't be the only person who got on Google with conceptual crayons. There are several possibilities. Keeping the existing route requires kilometers of grade separations, and going overland past the airport is a lot of land acquisition and road severance. The Bypass is sitting there with about 60 feet of space between the directions, enough for building a partly elevated structure without too much disruption. This spot near The Parkway and Fisher is already on two bus routes and is about 4 km from downtown. There is already a park and ride/carpool parking log nearby, and parking for the Toronto-bound could be added.

View attachment 632194

I would personally think a downtown station is the best option, but I have no idea what the locals think about the issue. I would guess most have not thought much about the realities of the existing route because no concrete proposals have been put out there. Nothing focuses the mind like renderings of a viaduct running past your back yard.

Downtown would be expensive and difficult given the cost of all the grade separations. It would also increase travel times as trains would have to slow down to navigate the tighter turns to get downtown, all for what is really a very minor stop on the line serving an area with almost universal auto ownership.

Remember that 300km/h rail needs railway curves to be in the minimum of around 4km radius - even what you drew there is nowhere close to what is required. I would be surprised if Peterborough station doesn't end up as a station in the rural area south of the City.

What you drew there may be a worthwhile effort to place the station somewhere which is still convenient while still sacrificing a small amount of speed, but we'll see I guess..

Wherever the station does end up, it will be an excellent commuting option for those working in Toronto, so I would hope to see some planning for transit oriented development around it.
I don't think it needs to be either/or. A by-pass would be relatively easy to design and build and that would probably be what most of the high speed trains would use. But slower local services or the occasional high speed train could use a station downtown. Some of the smaller cities in France are set up like this. No need for viaducts or grade separations (maybe a few on busier streets), they would simply operate as conventional trains on conventional tracks. A simple lift bridge would suffice over the canal.

I don't think a by-pass in the median of the 115 would be a good idea. MTO typically reserves the space between carriageways for future expansion and I can't see them wanting to give that up that up for a railway. Besides, a 300 km/h railway has different geometry than a 120 km/h highway. Space under overpasses could be an issue too. A by-pass would be on an entirely new right of way.
 
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That’s because Conservatives (a large swath of them) are under the impression that governments should “operate” nations like a company and that if it doesn’t turn a profit, its a waste of money. They don’t view governments as an instrument to invest in their people.

The place of government, aside from protecting us from threats, is to help keep the marketplace competitive and responsible.

Not everything that is profitable is of social value and not everything of social value is profitable.
I'd like to know what you think is inherently wrong with the principle that governments should spend according to the level of resources they collect from the populace? If you abandon any sense of cost/benefit, you lose any ability to prioritize spending according to need and expected value.

Now I'll say off the bat this: I love high-speed rail. We should have had it 30 years ago, we should have it today.

BUT: It's naive to think that any transit project is worth it at any cost. I know that is not what you're saying in your post - but it is a sentiment I see prevailing among some urbanists and transit enthusiasts and I'm simply using your post as a springboard for discussion. This project is allocating $3.9B for research and planning alone. Entire rail lines have been built start to finish for less money around the world. The total cost of the project (unconfirmed) is rumoured to be $65B - that's roughly $65M per kilometre; over 4x more expensive than the most recent TGV line in France, for no discernible reason.

Attitudes that transit must be built no matter the cost are one of the reasons prices keep inflating. And like it or not we do live in a world of trade-offs: How many hospitals could we build with that money? How many new schools? How about funding for our military? Regular people (non-transit obsessed people like us) care about these things and justifiably recoil at these costs. Not to mention when they are being announced in the dying days of a lame-duck government with no mandate months (or possibly weeks) before an election. I want this project to happen, and I think it should. But let's not assume that anyone who opposes these projects is just too dumb to see the benefits.
 
I'd like to know what you think is inherently wrong with the principle that governments should spend according to the level of resources they collect from the populace? If you abandon any sense of cost/benefit, you lose any ability to prioritize spending according to need and expected value.

Now I'll say off the bat this: I love high-speed rail. We should have had it 30 years ago, we should have it today.

BUT: It's naive to think that any transit project is worth it at any cost. I know that is not what you're saying in your post - but it is a sentiment I see prevailing among some urbanists and transit enthusiasts and I'm simply using your post as a springboard for discussion. This project is allocating $3.9B for research and planning alone. Entire rail lines have been built start to finish for less money around the world. The total cost of the project (unconfirmed) is rumoured to be $65B - that's roughly $65M per kilometre; over 4x more expensive than the most recent TGV line in France, for no discernible reason.

Attitudes that transit must be built no matter the cost are one of the reasons prices keep inflating. And like it or not we do live in a world of trade-offs: How many hospitals could we build with that money? How many new schools? How about funding for our military? Regular people (non-transit obsessed people like us) care about these things and justifiably recoil at these costs. Not to mention when they are being announced in the dying days of a lame-duck government with no mandate months (or possibly weeks) before an election. I want this project to happen, and I think it should. But let's not assume that anyone who opposes these projects is just too dumb to see the benefits.
1. While the timing of this latest announcement is unfortunate. One could argue that by attaching it to the election, it has now become an election issue, that demands a reponse from all the interested parties. So in effect assuming the next govt is in support of the project their would be a mandate.

2. With regard to the overall cost, imo it's premature to call it overpriced when compared to the latest french project, because we really don't know the scope of this project. For instance, are we getting airport to airport service? Are we getting airport to airport plus downtown to downtown service? How large will the highspeed terminus be in each of these cities? You're also comparing it to a region that has developed the supply chain and the expertise to build highspeed rail over litrally 70 years. We have non of this.


3. Your concern, with regards to military expenditure is valid, though there's no evidence that we cannot do both, especially when for at least 5 years, an average of less than 1 billion will be dedicated to the development of this line. Regardless of this project, within the next 5 years, if we choose not to invest into the military, it'll be because we didnt want to do so, not because trudau wants this line built.

When construction begins in earnest, with development time, spanning something like 10 years, you're looking at capital investment of 7 - 10 billion per year on such a project. A large sum to be sure but hardly something that canada cannot spend. And with the estimated ROI of 34b increased activities (surely exaggerated but still), it it is hard to deny that it wouldn't be worth it in the medium to long term..

Schools and hospitals are provincial matters, so I'd direct your ire towards that level of govt. Not the feds.

Fyi, countries should not be run like business with the end goal of maximizing profit. Even still, if it where, plenty of business run on credit and years of loss pumped into capital investments and R&D to create value. If a pure business approach is what you want, then yea this project is for you
 
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