micheal_can
Senior Member
Are you thinking it was not? Just like how the London route is Toronto focused. You don't see GO heading to Niagara in the mornings, do you?
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- Thread starter SaugeenJunction
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SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
A Collingwood extension would certainly be cheaper than the Bowmanville, Niagara, and Bolton extensions, yes. London is cheaper cause tracks are there and just need upgrading.
With transit building, it’s sometimes okay to go with the low-hanging fruit first.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
They would need to rebuild the track structure, replace the signalling equipment. Install CTC. Rebuild stations. Build sidings. Fix crossings. It's a lot of work.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Bowmanville is the only of those other extensions that do not have tracks along the routes they want to take. In fact, they are in great shape, and short of upgrading the stations and stops, there would be little needed.
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
That’s all pretty run of the mill railway work, nothing overly technical. Stations could be basic not monstrosities like GO builds now.
No. There is lots of new infra for all the projects I mentioned. Bowmanville - a new bridge to join to the CP corridor and a dedicated GO track from Oshawa to Bowmanville; Niagara requires large signalling and crossing upgrades, double tracking through the single track portion of the line, and the third track from West Harbour to Confederation, which includes a new bridge span over a highway. Bolton, being a CP corridor like Bowmanville, likely requires double tracking on the single track portion of the route and a bunch of new bridges.
Building a single track on an existing rail bed for Collingwood is a relative walk in the park technically and cost-wise.
beatle04
Active Member
Well during the weekends there are 3x as many trains as a single weekday and those are 100% tourist trains.
micheal_can
Senior Member
You have a section of ROW without anything vs double tracking and adding signals and a few stations.
Of the projects listed, here is the order I feel will be done:
Niagara
London
Bolton
Bowmanville
Collingwood
Having said that, if the Northlander is returned under Metrolinx, I could see a change towards tourist destinations.That could mean this list will change.
That is still Toronto focused.
crs1026
Superstar
Yes, but it's a longer walk than one might assume - on an uphill incline.
Oshawa to Bowmanville is about 9 miles, Barrie to Collingwood is 30. The volume of track materials needed is therefore triple. (Don't anyone fool themselves, above the subgrade a Collingwood line would be a total replacement of whatever remnants there are - all new ties, rail, stone.)
We haven't discussed whether any of the roads along the BCRy route would require grade separation under a more developed, frequent train at GO train speeds risk envelope. Oshawa to Bowmanville has only 8 at-grade crossings, Barrie-Collingwood has over 30.
Bringing GO service to Collingwood would probably cost more than bringing GO service to an equivalent level betwen Stratford and London. The right of way and crossing profiles are quite similar..... but which will generate more riders, and therefore justify the priority? Similarly, Niagara to Hamilton.
Will BCRY ridership be commensurate? The numbers may indicate that eventually - as noted above, the area is certain to have growth. But the numbers for Niagara or Kitchener-London, for instance, will be hard to match until that growth happens. And it's going to take plenty of years just to get those projects done.
- Paul
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lenaitch
Senior Member
Regarding crossings, just off the top of my head:
- County Rd. 27 at the west end of Barrie, is a fairly busy route.
- Hwy 26 is crossed twice, both in the village of Stayner. If there was a station there, at least speeds would be slow.
- Same for the County Rd. 10 crossing in Angus.
- County Rd. 9 at New Lowell I suppose is a major-ish crossing but I wouldn't call it overly busy.
- County Rd. 32 (Poplar Sideroad) was rebuilt a few years ago and the road profile dropped a few feet from the former level grade so it's really neither level nor separated.
- All of the rest that I can think of are rural roads. Because much of the alignment runs roughly at a diagonal to the survey, there are a lot of crossings.
All of that gets you to the east end of Collingwood. Trying to get further west runs up against expropriation costs, Niagara Escarpment Commission, and on and on.
I'd really need to see the commuting demographics to agree that some kind of regular service is needed in the near to even middle term. I can't deny the population projections, but what is the profile? Anecdotally, a significant proportion are retirees. I don't know if the population projections include seasonal/vacational residences, which also seem to me to be not insignificant. Traffic on Hwy 26 is notably heavier during 'rush hour' but I wouldn't call it significant and if the employment centre is Barrie, perhaps bus be a more cost effective alternative (without even accounting for trades who would still use their vehicles). Certainly, an alternative to road travel, but I'm not convinced the cost to rehabilitate the ROW, solely for a couple of trains is money well spent at this point. As a tourist service, I suppose taxpayers need to determine whether Collingwood, and perhaps Niagara Falls, is public money well spent at this time.
Bordercollie
Senior Member
I think the commuter market is between Collingwood and Barrie but also to the airport and to places like Vaughan and Newmarket.
Even if the train is the same time as driving with gas and car prices today taking the train is more attractive. But they could start with an on the demand service like they are with Cobourg to see the demand.
Northern Light
Superstar
I just started a new thread on a massive 130 acre proposal at the edge of Collingwood.
I note, with interest, the trail/rail ROW runs right along the edge of the proposal.
urbantoronto.ca
I note, with interest, the trail/rail ROW runs right along the edge of the proposal.
Poplar Regional Health and Wellness Village | ?m | ?s | DPML | SvN
Just a saw this story in RENX, which Collingwood is has endorsed as an MZO request. Its for a 130 acre development, which would contain 2,200 midrise and lowrise residential units, and 1.6Mft2 medical/office/research space. More details after the link...
Railrunner
Active Member
That’s the mother of all developments.I just started a new thread on a massive 130 acre proposal at the edge of Collingwood.
I note, with interest, the trail/rail ROW runs right along the edge of the proposal.
Poplar Regional Health and Wellness Village | ?m | ?s | DPML | SvN
Just a saw this story in RENX, which Collingwood is has endorsed as an MZO request. Its for a 130 acre development, which would contain 2,200 midrise and lowrise residential units, and 1.6Mft2 medical/office/research space. More details after the link...
lenaitch
Senior Member
You could be right, although I would be surprised if there was much to Newmarket/Vaughan, but we wouldn't know without data. It's been a long while since I've haunted Airport Rd. at that time of day but would be really surprised if there was much employment commute to the airport area. If anything, I would suspect that Honda Alliston and its feeders are a sizable draw, but don't really know.
lenaitch
Senior Member
The funny thing with those types of developments, is that if they pan out as proposed, there is little need for inter-city transit because they are advertised as self-sustaining ('live-work-play'). I fully expect that, at the end of the day, it will be tract housing with perhaps some employment, just like every other development.I just started a new thread on a massive 130 acre proposal at the edge of Collingwood.
I note, with interest, the trail/rail ROW runs right along the edge of the proposal.
Poplar Regional Health and Wellness Village | ?m | ?s | DPML | SvN
Just a saw this story in RENX, which Collingwood is has endorsed as an MZO request. Its for a 130 acre development, which would contain 2,200 midrise and lowrise residential units, and 1.6Mft2 medical/office/research space. More details after the link...
Georgian College's small regional campus is already there.
Northern Light
Superstar
I'm not yet familiar w/these two groups behind the proposal and can't speak to their track record.
While I vaguely endorse some of the ideas espoused, and acknowledge the mostly pretty renders......
Even if delivered, it gives me a bit of that 'adult lifestyle' / retirement / gated community vibe which I can't say I care for...........
As to whether it would be a development that either generates transit demand by draw, or by labour supply.................there are possibilities.
A full-service hospital will surely account for several hundred jobs if not more, in its own right, and will draw from beyond the immediate area.
Further services including academics/supplementary healthcare and retail may as well.
There is also a very clear discussion of workforce housing; possibly under contract to area employers.........(my inference would be Blue Mountain for sure, but I don't know that); those employees would certainly
need transport to work; though that might not be by any form of transit using the rail corridor.
I expect seasonal staff, however, might really benefit from a convenient connection to Toronto; and in lesser measure to Barrie.