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Almost all of the CTrain RoWs were reserved decades in advance, many older cities didn't have that luxury. Can you blame the city for building a surface LRT when there are empty corridors you can plop the train onto?

re: green line, building the 8th Avenue subway and interlining with Red would have been so cool, even if they would never do that lol
 
CalgaryTiger said:
Then can I ask why the Green Line is going underground? Wouldn't saving that money be better spent extending the line? This has obviously been debated to death, I just forget the answers.
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it seemed like the best idea at the time. and tbh, we ended up with a path dependent plan that if could go back to 2014, we would probably change some of it.
 
whatchyyc said:
Almost all of the CTrain RoWs were reserved decades in advance, many older cities didn't have that luxury. Can you blame the city for building a surface LRT when there are empty corridors you can plop the train onto?

re: green line, building the 8th Avenue subway and interlining with Red would have been so cool, even if they would never do that lol
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I just really hope that the city keeps the eventual construction of the red line subway in mind when they tunnel the green line at 8th and 2nd.

Also, it will still be very possible to have a tunnelled connection between the green and red line subway stations despite the ridiculous decision to have the green line station between 6th and 7th rather than 7th and 8th. It’ll just have to be built along with the 2nd street/Bankers Hall station for the red line tunnel. If Toronto can do it for 250 meters between Spadina and St George, we can do it one block between the stations.
 
CalgaryTiger said:
Isn't the city redoing Stephen Ave/8th Ave and Olympic Plaza... Surely the city can go to province and the feds and sell them on a couple billion to move the red and blue line under ground.
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Green Line will relieve the Red Line South enough that the SAS isn't needed until the medium/long term - 20-30 years out.
 
I don't understand why people obsess over transit form, at all. The point of transit is functional; 95% of the point of transit is if it can get people places conveniently; how it looks or how much it makes you feel like a big boy when you ride it is worth 5% or less.

I think Edmonton wishes they had our transit: they're currently building a line at-grade through their downtown, and they have all the knowledge of the system they have. Something that I don't think is appreciated enough (and the current lower frequency doesn't help) is that our 7th Ave LRT provides a real benefit in having a frequent, fast and free way to go from one end of the downtown to another. Adding in a couple of flights of stairs on either end would handicap that substantially.

Their system is half the size of ours because they spent a ton of money on the underground portion, couldn't afford the suburban extensions that drive ridership, and were politically handcuffed with the initial system finishing in a tunnel. If you think their system is better than ours, please specify which two legs of LRT you wished we didn't have in exchange for the downtown tunnel.
 
CalgaryTiger said:
Isn't the city redoing Stephen Ave/8th Ave and Olympic Plaza... Surely the city can go to province and the feds and sell them on a couple billion to move the red and blue line under ground.
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The plan has never included moving the blue line underground. The subway is for the red line as it’s already over capacity and will eventually need 5-car trains. I’m sure in the long term they could move the blue underground to the tunnel as well. The last estimate (forget what year) for the subway was $800 million. So I’d hope it wouldn’t be anymore than 1.5 billion today. Seems like a lot for a 2.6 km subway with 3 stations, but it it’ll be necessary a lot sooner than we think. 20 years isn’t a long time, and the metropolitan area will be well over 2 million by then. With how much of a shit show this city is at detailed planning of important public transport projects, they had better get to work on it yesterday.
 
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ByeByeBaby said:
I don't understand why people obsess over transit form, at all. The point of transit is functional; 95% of the point of transit is if it can get people places conveniently; how it looks or how much it makes you feel like a big boy when you ride it is worth 5% or less.

I think Edmonton wishes they had our transit: they're currently building a line at-grade through their downtown, and they have all the knowledge of the system they have. Something that I don't think is appreciated enough (and the current lower frequency doesn't help) is that our 7th Ave LRT provides a real benefit in having a frequent, fast and free way to go from one end of the downtown to another. Adding in a couple of flights of stairs on either end would handicap that substantially.

Their system is half the size of ours because they spent a ton of money on the underground portion, couldn't afford the suburban extensions that drive ridership, and were politically handcuffed with the initial system finishing in a tunnel. If you think their system is better than ours, please specify which two legs of LRT you wished we didn't have in exchange for the downtown tunnel.
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There are definitely some benefits to having the train at grade. Last time I was in Ottawa I rode the LRT and was able to compare the 'look and feel' to ours. for the most part both systems kind of feel the same, except for downtown of course, where Ottawa's system has three underground stations.

Ottawa pros
-Train doesn't need to stop at lights when going through downtown.
-Stations are warmer in the winter.

Calgary Pros
- I love that you can just walk up to a platform in DT Calgary and hop on, do a couple of stations and hop off, and for me this is a huge pro. You don't need to spend a half hour going up and down multiple flights of stairs and escalators just to get to/from the platforms. Frankly it's quite a pain in the butt.
-You can see the trains coming from quite a distance. I know you can look at signs or use an app, but seeing a train visually coming from a distance is nice.
-Open fresh air above ground in the summer/spring/fall. One thing I've never enjoyed is heading down to the stale air of an underground station on a nice day.
-I like being able to look out the window and see things while travelling on the train.

If Calgary's trains didn't have to stop at traffic lights downtown, I would never advocate for an underground tunnel. It might seem cool off the top, but it's a real inconvenience. Having it at surface is so much quicker and easier for people to use it.

Also as a side note. I don't want to make it seem like I'm picking on Ottawa's system. I've used a good 40-50 LRT/Subway systems around the world with underground stations, but for comparison purposes it's best to use Ottawa or Edmonton, and I haven't used Edmonton's in about 20 years.
 
CalgaryTiger said:
What if we had less lights? I think you could remove every light except 8th, 5th, 4th, 1st (SW), 1st (SE) and Macleod. That eliminates 6 crossings (half), that must make some kind of difference.
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Or just make trains absolutely positively Priority #1 - there is no reason they ever need to stop at lights, it seems instead we've made a choice to prioritize timed signals on 9th/6th/5th (or perhaps it's for timed signals on those N-S roads...I don't drive them enough to know if they are well timed?).

It's complicated, but it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Even if it means drivers may wait 3 minutes at a N-S light sometimes.
 
I through downtown three or four times a week, but I would be OK with giving the LRT complete right of way.
When I travel through downtown, it’s usually mid day off peak hours, and so often I see the train stopped at a red light, only so a handful of cars can pass through.
There’s no question in my mind that the LRT could be given full right of way in off-peak hours - during peak hours it might be more of an issue, but drivers can also adjust.
 
TBH, I'm not sure there would be much time made up by the change. Now, if the Red Line moved to a tunnel, then priority for the remaining trains might save a fair amount of time.
 
lemongrab said:
Or just make trains absolutely positively Priority #1 - there is no reason they ever need to stop at lights, it seems instead we've made a choice to prioritize timed signals on 9th/6th/5th (or perhaps it's for timed signals on those N-S roads...I don't drive them enough to know if they are well timed?).

It's complicated, but it shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Even if it means drivers may wait 3 minutes at a N-S light sometimes.
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Does anyone know how the prioritization currently works? Maybe I am misremembering my commutes, on 7th Avenue typically their is minimal waits at signals, except when there's a train ahead. There's the Red Line in the NW that does often have to stop when entering into downtown, but as far as I remember it's just that one signal as the train has to proceed from the river all the way to 7th avenue because it can't fit anywhere in between stopped. The NE Blue Line seems to rarely wait at any of it's crossings leaving the core so must have better or total priority.

That said, if we went true full priority (i.e. under no circumstances will a train stop at a signal) I am sure that we could shave off a bit of time and have the average train move faster. Outside the core I think the LRT has full priority, however the amount of level crossings probably limits speeds in some locations.

Is there any data available to map out where the largest predictable delay (as opposed to collisions, people holding doors randomly etc.) actually is on the LRT in the core? My guess would be that NW crossing of 4th Avenue on the Red Line has the most average delay, while some other intersections probably have near zero average delay due to the location of stations. Would be interesting to see the average trip profile data - where/when a train stops, for what reasons.
 
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