[Mot]

This mess continues

Keith, to me you are just a guy on a forum with an opinion. I have no way of knowing if you are a soldier and I am tired of you using it to support illegal, immoral and down right stupid foreign policy.

Articles 15-17 cover civilians too, Below they are provided for your information. I never even brought up Afghanistan, you did. I am talking about American actions in Iraq. You can pretend the US is protecting civilians while 100,000 or more have been slaughtered, I am not buying it. The US trains it’s soldiers that all Iraqi are possible terrorists and treat them as such. Invading Iraqi homes without just cause and arresting male family members without any justification and throwing them into prisons all over the country. Iraq did not have Al Qaeda in it’s borders until after the US invaded. Iraq is not the enemy and no one including the military can tell us what victory in Iraq is and how to achieve it. Now as a soldier I would think you would object to fellow soldiers being used as cannon fodder in a political war. But you seem perfectly fine with it. Men, women and children are being slaughtered daily there and the war resisters are doing their part to stop it. Why aren’t you?

Article 15
Any Party to the conflict may, either directly or through a neutral State or some humanitarian organization, propose to the adverse Party to establish, in the regions where fighting is taking place, neutralized zones intended to shelter from the effects of war the following persons, without distinction:
(a) Wounded and sick combatants or non-combatants;
(b) Civilian persons who take no part in hostilities, and who, while they reside in the zones, perform no work of a military character.
When the Parties concerned have agreed upon the geographical position, administration, food supply and supervision of the proposed neutralized zone, a written agreement shall be concluded and signed by the representatives of the Parties to the conflict. The agreement shall fix the beginning and the duration of the neutralization of the zone.

Article 16
The wounded and sick, as well as the infirm, and expectant mothers, shall be the object of particular protection and respect.
As far as military considerations allow, each Party to the conflict shall facilitate the steps taken to search for the killed and wounded, to assist the shipwrecked and other persons exposed to grave danger, and to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment.

Article 1 7
The Parties to the conflict shall endeavour to conclude local agreements for the removal from besieged or encircled areas, of wounded, sick, infirm, and aged

 

[Brandon716]

I wanted to give you an example of why these people are moving north to protest the war given the fact they will see jail time and be criminal if they move back to the United States.

Have you ever tried to look for work if you have a criminal record, especially a felony?

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/35418

8/8/08

Last month 25-year-old U.S. Army PFC Robin Long became the first war resister since the Vietnam War to be forcefully deported from Canadian soil and handed over to military authorities. Robin is currently being held in the El Paso County Jail, near Colorado Springs, Colorado, awaiting a military court martial for resisting the unjust and illegal war against and occupation of Iraq. Robin will be court martialed for desertion “with intent to remain away permanentlyâ€â€”Article 85 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice—in early September. The maximum allowable penalty for a guilty verdict on this charge is three years confinement, forfeiture of pay, and a dishonorable discharge from the Army.

1. Donate to Robin’s legal expenses
2. Send Robin letters" of support, more

In order to expedite Robin’s trial, it appears that his unit command, the Fourth Brigade Combat Team, Fourth Infantry Division is opting to not charge Robin with speech-related violations of military discipline; opting to try and convict Robin as fast as possible.

Robin went absent without leave (AWOL) from the Army in 2005, realizing that he had significant moral opposition to the war and the lies he had been told regarding the reason for invasion and occupation of Iraq. After being transferred to an Iraq bound combat unit, Robin went to Boise, Id. (his home town) where he stayed for several months, before traveling to Canada.

Robin recently talked to Courage to Resist about why he enlisted. “When the U.S. first attacked Iraq, I was told by my president that it was because of direct ties to Al-Qaida and weapons of mass destruction.†Robin explained that while he was uneasy about his personal role in fighting, the Iraq War seemed justified. So when his recruiter promised him a non-combat position within the U.S., he took it. Regarding his decision to resist later, Robin explained, “I made the best decision. Regardless of what hardships I go through, I could have put Iraqi families through more hardships. I have no regrets.†When asked by the Boise Weekly, in May of 2006, if he was prepared to go to jail, Robin replied, “Yeah if it came down to that, I'd be willing to go to prison because I know I did the right thing and I can sleep at night and my conscience is still good.â€

 

[Mot]

BrandonTO416. While I don’t believe that the US occupation of Iraq is helpful for global security, I still do not wish to see Canada embroiled in the internal politics of the United States. We stayed out of the conflict in Iraq. End of story. We really do not have the right to interfere in the dialog and political machinations of our southern neighbour, any more than they would have a right to interfere up here. This is particularly so on Iraq, given that we are not party to that conflict. My opposition to accepting US deserters is based on this principle and the fact that they do not in any way fall under the definition of convention refugees. Please tell me, when in history have protesters deserved refugee status. Vietnam was an exception because of the draft. And even in that case, Canada risked severely damaging relations with our best neighbour. Apparently, courts in Canada also agree with me.

Laws exist for a reason. We can’t circumvent them whenever we feel its politically convenient to do so. If these deserters feel that they got a raw deal, I am confident that the fair and impartial courts of the US can provide appropriate justice. They are not Canadian citizens, they are not convention refugees, and they have not sought legal permanent residency in Canada. In my opinion, Canada owes them no duty of care.

You can accuse me of being pro-war. That’s your opinion. I want what’s best for Canada…and that’s to keep our nose out of other people’s business.

The US court system over the last 8 years has been stuffed to the rim with neo con supporters of the Bush Administration. The last thing you will find is fair and impartial court in the US.

Canada should stand up as the beacon of sanity against this kind of militarism. I am seeing fear of the US from you in this latest post.

There is such a thing a bad law. Would you suggest if this were 1865 that a runaway slave be returned because it's US law to own them? There is a difference between right and wrong and the laws that support both.

BTW- we covered the "Ecomomic Draft", Stop Loss and the unprecedented use of the national guard in Iraq in previous posts which run rough shod on the whole Vietnam draft argument.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wanted to give you an example of why these people are moving north to protest the war given the fact they will see jail time and be criminal if they move back to the United States.

Have you ever tried to look for work if you have a criminal record, especially a felony?

8/8/08

While I pity their situation, I still don't think Canada owes them anything. Explain to me how pissing off the US is going to help Canada. Like I said, why should we involve ourselves in what is essentially a domestic affair of the United States?

The US is a secular liberal democracy with fair and impartial courts. Are you disputing any of this? These are American citizens who have a disagreement with their democratically elected government. Let them seek justice and fairness in their courts and leave Canada out of it.

I don't believe Canada has any interest in opening up to refugees of bad political decisions of the world's democracies.

 

[Brandon716]

The fact these deserters will face jail time and even if they serve short sentences will be struck with a life-long criminal record is more than enough to qualify them for refugee status in Canada.

What is fair about going back to a nation where every employer you seek a job from will judge you based on a criminal record that shouldn't be there?

There is a huge underclass of people who can never get good jobs because of criminal records in the United States, many of which have committed no real crime.

These war resisters are coming back to a nation that immediately excludes them from much of the job market once they get out of the legal system.

As a Canadian, I would hope you would be proud to welcome them with open arms. Its an individual choice you're making not to care about their cause and to actively want them to be deported.

Between your government's deportation of American war resisters and my denial letter for a friggen work permit, I wonder what kind of sense your government has in immigration matters. The latest nonsense from Harper's immigration "reform" makes it 10 times worse. It seems they are willing to let an uneducated, non-English or French speaking person who has minimal capabilities into your society just because they have some 4th cousin in the country already while its rejecting people from its closest neighbor and ally when we have people who genuinely have a strong desire and/or need to move north.

[edit: if the above comments seem insensitive, oh well... i believe everyone should be given a fair chance, but i'm kind of bitter about my immigration attempts and baffled why I'm not already in Toronto]

I mean every government has a lot of nonsense in its decision making, but come on. What is the big deal about letting these people stay?

Immigrating to Canada isn't as easy as you think, I know as I've tried before and thus far been unsuccessful. And I'm an educated American without any sort of criminal background and have a lot of knowledge of the Canadian system and respect for it.

I can only imagine how hard it is for others who wish to call Canada home.

 

[Mot]

Brandon, below is what James Burmeister went through. He is now in military prison in the US.

Small Kill Teams

Burmeister was also disturbed by the "small kill teams" for which he was asked to provide cover. On Sept. 24, 2007, the Washington Post investigated the story of the classified program of using "bait and kill" tactics in which sniper teams would scatter "bait" such as ammunition and detonation cords to attract Iraqi insurgents who would then be shot by snipers.

But Burmeister, who had deserted from the Army five months before the story broke, had been telling that story to the media for months.

In a July 2007 article in The Oregonian, Burmeister said he had participated in a team that placed fake cameras on poles and labeled them U.S. property to give the team the right to shoot anyone who to tried to move or take the equipment.

Burmeister writes in his deposition, "These citizens were almost always unarmed. In some cases the Iraqi victims looked to me like they were children, perhaps teenagers."

He told the same story to Canada's CBC news in June 2007, and allegedly to PBS's NOW, but that statement was not used in the portions of his interview used on air.


http://eugeneweekly.com/2008/05/22/coverstory.html

 

[Mot]

While I pity their situation, I still don't think Canada owes them anything. Explain to me how pissing off the US is going to help Canada. Like I said, why should we involve ourselves in what is essentially a domestic affair of the United States?

The US is a secular liberal democracy with fair and impartial courts. Are you disputing any of this? These are American citizens who have a disagreement with their democratically elected government. Let them seek justice and fairness in their courts and leave Canada out of it.

I don't believe Canada has any interest in opening up to refugees of bad political decisions of the world's democracies.

It's naive to think the US has fair and impartial courts. As I said earlier Bush had 8 years to stack judge placements with right wing idealogues and he did just that.

 

[Brandon716]

As disgusting as that is Mot, I'm not surprised, nor am I shocked. When politicians stand up and say we're on some kind of humanitarian mission they have the most empty words on the planet.

Saddam was one S.O.B. but the US military has killed many times more people trying to "liberate" Iraq than Saddam ever did alone.

No one likes to see genocidal maniacs in office, but when militaries decide to go to war they need to measure what good they will do relative to just leaving the situation to diplomacy and economic sanctions.

America's government has succeeding in mutilating and killing more Iraqi citizens than Saddam ever did, and besides, most of the people Saddam killed were in the 1980's in his gassing and torture of ethnic Kurds in the north using help from the United States when we were funding their war against Iran.

The irony of it all.

 

[kEiThZ]

There is nothing fair about their situation. I agree with that. But there is nothing for Canadians to feel guilty about. It is US voters who have failed them and that's who they should be addressing.

All that said, given the links between our countries, do you think they would have a substantially easier time finding employment in Canada....where their criminal records will pop up? They are better off fighting to clear their names south of the border.

I am sorry that your application for residency was denied, and I sincerely wish you the best of luck in trying again. The immigration policy is restrictive with good reason. Just as immigration to Europe, Austrailia or the USA is. Canada is not out to become the world's door mat. That would be the end of Canada as we know it. We have to pick immigrants that will integrate well and will be able to contribute to the betterment of Canadian society. As an immigrant myself, I still believe in this policy. It seems to have worked extremely well for most of our history. I have no qualms with the US deserters applying for Canadian residency. I wish them all the luck in that. But let them get in line like everybody else. I see no reason why they deserve special treatment. Again, they are not convention refugees, so they don't qualify for any expedited process. Apparently, the Supreme Court of Canada (often accused of being fairly liberal) seems to agree with my reasoning. If you have a quibble with the definition, take it up with the UNHCR. Our courts have already ruled on this issue.

 

[Brandon716]

There is nothing fair about their situation. I agree with that. But there is nothing for Canadians to feel guilty about. It is US voters who have failed them and that's who they should be addressing.

All that said, given the links between our countries, do you think they would have a substantially easier time finding employment in Canada....where their criminal records will pop up? They are better off fighting to clear their names south of the border.

I am sorry that your application for residency was denied, and I sincerely wish you the best of luck in trying again. The immigration policy is restrictive with good reason. Just as immigration to Europe, Austrailia or the USA is. Canada is not out to become the world's door mat. That would be the end of Canada as we know it. We have to pick immigrants that will integrate well and will be able to contribute to the betterment of Canadian society. As an immigrant myself, I still believe in this policy. It seems to have worked extremely well for most of our history. I have no qualms with the US deserters applying for Canadian residency. I wish them all the luck in that. But let them get in line like everybody else. I see no reason why they deserve special treatment. Again, they are not convention refugees, so they don't qualify for any expedited process. Apparently, the Supreme Court of Canada (often accused of being fairly liberal) seems to agree with my reasoning. If you have a quibble with the definition, take it up with the UNHCR. Our courts have already ruled on this issue.

I never said that Canadians should feel guilty.

What I did say is that I find it amazing that the government of Canada won't allow them to stay on any basis, be it refugee claim or just give them a work permit for crying out loud, because most Canadians don't mind if a disgruntled American comes north.

On the contrary, I think you will find those of us who want to move north - regardless of military status (I'm not in the military) - have a deep respect for Canada. We actually cherish its independence from the United States, clearly want to keep it that way, and most Canadians I think understand this.

And actually, you shouldn't fear Americans who move north because we're usually trying to get away from the US, not make Canada like the US.

I take offense to your notion that we're using Canada as a door mat. A lot of Americans happen to love Canada, enough to move there.


BTW, there is another folly in your argument. War resisters that go back to the US and then have a criminal record on their background will then be submitting applications to the Canadian government for immigration. That immigration application, if coming from the US, requires an FBI background check. I know, I've had my fingerprints taken on an FBI card, I submitted the paperwork and had my own criminal background check pushed through on my application. I have a clean record so theoretically all should go well...

When you hand an immigration application to a Canadian immigration officer that has a felony listed because you are a war resister (the FBI form doesn't indicate what kind of violation occurred, btw, its just a felony), your application is immediately declined.

These people have no hopes of moving to Canada through "normal" means.

You should brush up on Canadian immigration law.

 

[kEiThZ]

I am aware that their criminal record would come up with their application. They can also provide appropriate substantiation to discuss why they should be accepted anyway.

I work with a Jewish Iranian Canadian woman who did just that when she was coming to Canada.

And yes I am against Canada becoming a refuge of convenience. Will all of you move back once Obama comes in and the economy improves? How would that benefit us in any way?

 

[Brandon716]

I am aware that their criminal record would come up with their application. They can also provide appropriate substantiation to discuss why they should be accepted anyway.

I work with a Jewish Iranian Canadian woman who did just that when she was coming to Canada.

And yes I am against Canada becoming a refuge of convenience. Will all of you move back once Obama comes in and the economy improves? How would that benefit us in any way?

To answer your question most simply, I wouldn't be moving back no matter who is President here. I personally don't prefer Stephen Harper to be PM in Canada, but I would still prefer to live in Canada even if he were PM should Obama be President in 2009.

I can only speak for myself, but I doubt that many Americans willing to move north do it purely on political grounds. Its hard to imagine people moving to Canada from the US only on political grounds, most of us who attempt immigration genuinely like Canada in a holistic sense.

And its pretty clear you personally don't want Americans of any kind coming north, which I suppose sums up the reason why you wish war resisters to be deported.

Like I said in the beginning, this isn't about intelligence. I'm sure you're very capable, but you've made the conscious decision to not support people moving to Canada from the US and its an individual choice. I don't agree and don't understand why you prefer this, but you're certainly able to make your own choices.

 

[digi]

If by that, you mean that I should continue to believe that serving Canada is a noble and honourable thing to do, then I most certainly agree with you!

No, that's not what I meant, and if you were a "good reader" you'd know that, but you're obviously being intentionally obtuse, or, you're just stupid.

 

[Dichotomy]

The fact these deserters will face jail time and even if they serve short sentences will be struck with a life-long criminal record is more than enough to qualify them for refugee status in Canada.

What is fair about going back to a nation where every employer you seek a job from will judge you based on a criminal record that shouldn't be there?

There is a huge underclass of people who can never get good jobs because of criminal records in the United States, many of which have committed no real crime.

These war resisters are coming back to a nation that immediately excludes them from much of the job market once they get out of the legal system.

As a Canadian, I would hope you would be proud to welcome them with open arms. Its an individual choice you're making not to care about their cause and to actively want them to be deported.

Between your government's deportation of American war resisters and my denial letter for a friggen work permit, I wonder what kind of sense your government has in immigration matters. The latest nonsense from Harper's immigration "reform" makes it 10 times worse. It seems they are willing to let an uneducated, non-English or French speaking person who has minimal capabilities into your society just because they have some 4th cousin in the country already while its rejecting people from its closest neighbor and ally when we have people who genuinely have a strong desire and/or need to move north.

[edit: if the above comments seem insensitive, oh well... i believe everyone should be given a fair chance, but i'm kind of bitter about my immigration attempts and baffled why I'm not already in Toronto]

I mean every government has a lot of nonsense in its decision making, but come on. What is the big deal about letting these people stay?

Immigrating to Canada isn't as easy as you think, I know as I've tried before and thus far been unsuccessful. And I'm an educated American without any sort of criminal background and have a lot of knowledge of the Canadian system and respect for it.

I can only imagine how hard it is for others who wish to call Canada home.

Not to sidetrack this discussion, but the main reason you are not getting anywhere with your immigration application is BECAUSE you are American. If you were from Asia, south Asia, Africa or the Caribbean you would be here by now. That is the way the numbers are skewed, I am afraid.

 

[kEiThZ]

To answer your question most simply, I wouldn't be moving back no matter who is President here. I personally don't prefer Stephen Harper to be PM in Canada, but I would still prefer to live in Canada even if he were PM should Obama be President in 2009.

I can only speak for myself, but I doubt that many Americans willing to move north do it purely on political grounds. Its hard to imagine people moving to Canada from the US only on political grounds, most of us who attempt immigration genuinely like Canada in a holistic sense.

And its pretty clear you personally don't want Americans of any kind coming north, which I suppose sums up the reason why you wish war resisters to be deported.

Like I said in the beginning, this isn't about intelligence. I'm sure you're very capable, but you've made the conscious decision to not support people moving to Canada from the US and its an individual choice. I don't agree and don't understand why you prefer this, but you're certainly able to make your own choices.

Hold on there....

I am not against Americans moving to Canada. I like the American people. In fact, I have relatives who are US citizens, many of whom oppose the war in Iraq deeply. And I think the United States is a prosperous and generous nation that provides opportunities to millions. I for one think that we have a great and historical relationship with the United States that should endure the passage of time and politics. And I'd like to keep it that way.

But, part of having an independent foreign policy is having an independent immigration policy, not one that is merely reactionary to US foreign policy. Anti-americanism does not constitute a real foreign policy. US citizens are already given plenty of rights under NAFTA. Do they really need any more special treatment? And keep in mind, Canada will not provide that treatment regardless of which party is in power without reciprocity from the US.

For our relationship with the US to endure we have to be willing to work together. Accepting war resisters would be an extremely political and invasive slap to the face of the US. How would Canadians feel if the situation was reversed? You may argue about what is right or wrong. But I doubt many Canadians would support you on this point, because they implicitly understand that you don't interfere in your neighbour's business unless you want them interfering in yours. This is exactly why Parliament played politics with the bill to keep them here. If they really meant it, they would have declared the bill a vote of confidence. Let's see when the Liberals are back in if they vote to keep US deserters here. My money says no.

I firmly believe that these people should campaign in the US for the conflict to end (although I believe that would leave anarchy in Iraq...but thats another story). That is the proper and appropriate and noble course of action for any citizen in a democracy. Rally your fellow citizens to change the course of the nation.