[Dichotomy]

Brandon, below is what James Burmeister went through. He is now in military prison in the US.

Small Kill Teams

Burmeister was also disturbed by the "small kill teams" for which he was asked to provide cover. On Sept. 24, 2007, the Washington Post investigated the story of the classified program of using "bait and kill" tactics in which sniper teams would scatter "bait" such as ammunition and detonation cords to attract Iraqi insurgents who would then be shot by snipers.

But Burmeister, who had deserted from the Army five months before the story broke, had been telling that story to the media for months.

In a July 2007 article in The Oregonian, Burmeister said he had participated in a team that placed fake cameras on poles and labeled them U.S. property to give the team the right to shoot anyone who to tried to move or take the equipment.

Burmeister writes in his deposition, "These citizens were almost always unarmed. In some cases the Iraqi victims looked to me like they were children, perhaps teenagers."

He told the same story to Canada's CBC news in June 2007, and allegedly to PBS's NOW, but that statement was not used in the portions of his interview used on air.


http://eugeneweekly.com/2008/05/22/coverstory.html

The entire affair is sad, frankly. So we're mad at the U.S. because they are entrapping the insurgents and then allegedly shooting 'children?' You don't think the insurgents know that? Hasn't Israel been complaining about that for decades? They're called human shields.
And I wouldn't call these brain-washed monsters 'children.'

 

[Dichotomy]

As disgusting as that is Mot, I'm not surprised, nor am I shocked. When politicians stand up and say we're on some kind of humanitarian mission they have the most empty words on the planet.

Saddam was one S.O.B. but the US military has killed many times more people trying to "liberate" Iraq than Saddam ever did alone.
No one likes to see genocidal maniacs in office, but when militaries decide to go to war they need to measure what good they will do relative to just leaving the situation to diplomacy and economic sanctions.

America's government has succeeding in mutilating and killing more Iraqi citizens than Saddam ever did, and besides, most of the people Saddam killed were in the 1980's in his gassing and torture of ethnic Kurds in the north using help from the United States when we were funding their war against Iran.

The irony of it all.

Really? Sure they haven't been assassinated by the insurgents? If America is guilty of anything it is naively underestimating the will of the Islamic zealots, especially in Iran. They should have known better.

I could just laugh, all the armchair critics crying because people are being killed in a war. Imagine that. I wish Russia or China would invade us, so we can go crying to The Hague about our rights.

 

[Brandon716]

[edit: in response to keith]You really don't get it at this point. It doesn't matter how active or not active people are in politics or the public sphere here in the United States, immigration to Canada is a separate matter.

I don't seek to change US policy by moving to Canada, I seek to live in Canada by moving to Canada. I doubt many war resisters honestly believe they will change US government by moving.

 

[Brandon716]

Really? Sure they haven't been assassinated by the insurgents? If America is guilty of anything it is naively underestimating the will of the Islamic zealots, especially in Iran. They should have known better.

I could just laugh, all the armchair critics crying because people are being killed in a war. Imagine that. I wish Russia or China would invade us, so we can go crying to The Hague about our rights.

To be fair, I should have been more detailed. The US military unleashed disorder in where more people have been killed since 2003 due to the conditions created by our invasion of Iraq than Saddam killed over the previous 30 years combined.

I didn't mean to say the US military has literally murdered more people than Saddam per se, even though that's what it sounded like.

 

[Dichotomy]

These people have been at war for a thousand years. It was naive, at best, for Bush to think he could sort it out in a couple years and go home.

The biggest difference between the draft (Vietnam) and voluntary military service is a world of difference. How stupid can a person be: sign up for the national guard or the marines and expect to NOT have to shoot people? Egad. It's a little more serious than signing for a new condo, then getting buyer's remorse.

 

[kEiThZ]

[edit: in response to keith]You really don't get it at this point. It doesn't matter how active or not active people are in politics or the public sphere here in the United States, immigration to Canada is a separate matter.

I don't seek to change US policy by moving to Canada, I seek to live in Canada by moving to Canada. I doubt many war resisters honestly believe they will change US government by moving.

And you are welcome to move here and so are the deserters. I am only arguing that US citizens do not deserve special procedural treatment beyond the special privileges they already get, something you have advocated for. Even most Vietnam draft dodgers applied to enter Canada legally by seeking permanent residency. They didnt come in as refugees.

 

[Brandon716]

And you are welcome to move here and so are the deserters. I am only arguing that US citizens do not deserve special procedural treatment beyond the special privileges they already get, something you have advocated for. Even most Vietnam draft dodgers applied to enter Canada legally by seeking permanent residency. They didnt come in as refugees.

Considering barely a few thousand people legally immigrate from the US to Canada out of the over 250-300,000 immigrants every year, I don't think we're getting preferential treatment.

Although the conditions aren't as bad as it is for Indian people who sometimes wait 6 years just to get an answer, which may be no.

It still takes over 2 YEARS of waiting just to get a yes/no answer on permanent residency applications through the Canadian consulate's office in Buffalo, which is the only office accepting permanent applications. Work permits are another story, but even they are only temporary and employers don't sponsor them easily unless you have a personal friend.

 

[kEiThZ]

Considering barely a few thousand people legally immigrate from the US to Canada out of the over 250-300,000 immigrants every year, I don't think we're getting preferential treatment.

Although the conditions aren't as bad as it is for Indian people who sometimes wait 6 years just to get an answer, which may be no.

It still takes over 2 YEARS of waiting just to get a yes/no answer on permanent residency applications through the Canadian consulate's office in Buffalo, which is the only office accepting permanent applications. Work permits are another story, but even they are only temporary and employers don't sponsor them easily unless you have a personal friend.

Yeah that's rough. But if those stats are true. Our focus should be on improving consular services in India. You'll generally find that Canadians are opposed to queue jumping...hence our single tier health care system.

 

[Brandon716]

Yeah that's rough. But if those stats are true. Our focus should be on improving consular services in India. You'll generally find that Canadians are opposed to queue jumping...hence our single tier health care system.

Don't even start to lecture me about the health system, I'm aware of the Canadian health system, I support it, and your condescending attitude is rather annoying at this point. The Health Canada Act has nothing to do with immigration.

Americans and Canadians should have a very open door policy in regards to immigrants between our respective nations, above the standard. The reasons are obvious: geographics are at play, culture is at play. It is literally easier for someone from any Eastern US state to move physically from a city here to a city in Ontario or other parts of Eastern Canada and the Maritimes than it is for us to go cross-country to a place like California. Vice versa, its easier for someone from BC to move to California then it is for them to move to Toronto.

We both share similarities in language, most Americans can get along fine in Canada as our English is similar, and most Americans who move to Quebec tend to want to move there for the French culture and would likely already know French.

What other nation can you possibly say has a relationship like that with Canada?

This argument goes above and beyond typical political fodder IMO. The argument you are throwing out is rather asinine, that someone moving from Pakistan should be given the same treatment as someone who wants to move from Buffalo to Toronto.

I beg to differ. Tens of millions of Americans live within a few hours of Canada and vice versa, its rediculous for any US immigration officer to hassle any Canadian who wants to come south to work and live.

I'm not too big into hyper-nationalism, whats important is security. And Americans moving north pose no more security risk than someone moving from one province to another within Canada.

 

[kEiThZ]

Don't even start to lecture me about the health system, I'm aware of the Canadian health system, I support it, and your condescending attitude is rather annoying at this point. The Health Canada Act has nothing to do with immigration.

Americans and Canadians should have a very open door policy in regards to immigrants between our respective nations, above the standard. The reasons are obvious: geographics are at play, culture is at play. It is literally easier for someone from any Eastern US state to move physically from a city here to a city in Ontario or other parts of Eastern Canada and the Maritimes than it is for us to go cross-country to a place like California. Vice versa, its easier for someone from BC to move to California then it is for them to move to Toronto.

We both share similarities in language, most Americans can get along fine in Canada as our English is similar, and most Americans who move to Quebec tend to want to move there for the French culture and would likely already know French.

What other nation can you possibly say has a relationship like that with Canada?

This argument goes above and beyond typical political fodder IMO. The argument you are throwing out is rather asinine, that someone moving from Pakistan should be given the same treatment as someone who wants to move from Buffalo to Toronto.

I beg to differ. Tens of millions of Americans live within a few hours of Canada and vice versa, its rediculous for any US immigration officer to hassle any Canadian who wants to come south to work and live.

I'm not too big into hyper-nationalism, whats important is security. And Americans moving north pose no more security risk than someone moving from one province to another within Canada.

I mean no offence. I am merely throwing my view into the ether just like you are. Again...you are arguing for special treatment for US citizens who want to move Canada. I would disagree that this is fair or necessary. Why should my family back home in India, wait for half a decade, so you can waltz in whenever you feel like it? Would that be fair?

I don't agree with queue jumping. I am all in favour of the status quo when it comes to immigration policy. NAFTA isnt the EU. Until the US decides that Canadians are free to take up residency at will, I see no chance for that policy to change.

You're right that we share many cultural similarities. But you're mistaken to think that this means Canadians have far more in common with their American neighbours than they do with each other. I assure you, the Maritimers would not take too kindly to being compared to New Englanders....

I have not said that Americans are security threats (though an argument that they could subvert canadian culture could be made).... all I have said is that US citizens should not be afforded special treatment or exemptions from the immigration laws of Canada. US military deserters included.

 

[Brandon716]

I don't believe in queue jumping either, this is not about queue jumping.

There should be a quick and painless process for Americans who apply to come to Canada. The process should take a few months, not years.

I believe everyone should go through a process, but it shouldn't be some bureaucratic nightmare mess that has all kinds of unnecessary wait.

That's all I feel like saying at this point, because you're obviously interested in finding reasons to argue.

You seem to speak like you understand immigration in one sentence, then you make a statement in another which totally throws off the conversation.

All I said is that security is first and foremost. Someone who wants to come to Canada should be allowed so long as the immigrant's background can be fully checked.

In western nations - not just the United States - this process is easy. I got my FBI clearance in two months.

After that, as long as you can prove you have the education and inspiration/knowledge to be Canadian (I think a minimum requirement should be that everyone should know who is PM and some basics) then you should be approved.

It should be 3-6 months. NOT YEARS.

And yes, if it takes longer to process an application from Pakistan because they have to screen security, so be it.

I'm not against anyone's nationality for immigrating to western nations, as long as they check out and aren't bringing a militant record with them.

Its not my fault that I can get an FBI clearance in 2 months and it takes a while for Pakistani or Iranian or any other nationality to be checked out.

Lastly, you missed the point. I didn't compare Maritime Canadians with New Englanders, I said it was easier for a Maritime Canadian to move to an eastern state than it would be for them to move to BC, likewise I said it would be easier for a BC resident to move to California than to Toronto from a GEOGRAPHIC perspective.

You're very set in your ways, and that's fine. But don't lecture me on queues and waiting, I have wanted to live in Toronto ever since I set foot in the city in May 2002. I'm still waiting, so I know a thing or two about queues.

I consulted with someone to see if I could go to school at UofT instead of going back here, and I didn't have the funding needed and couldn't find the loans. So an immigration consultant years ago advised me to finish at least an associates degree here in the United States. So I did just that, and in 2004 i graduated and finally boosted my points score.

So I came to Toronto in September 2004 after getting finished with my degree program and looked for work, and couldn't find anyone willing to sponsor me as an employer sponsored work permit. Without that sponsorship, I lacked just a few points from the necessary requirement.

So I came back to the US, spent several years working to build work experience to gain those points. I applied last year and couldn't get approved because I didn't have enough years of work experience I suppose for their point system.

The only sponsored job I've ever had was totally messed up, so back to square one.

Don't lecture me personally on queues, I don't have the tolerance to hear it. 6 years later, I'm still waiting.

 

[Dichotomy]

I'm all for open borders between the US and Canada. Judging by the hundreds of thousands of Canucks that spend 4+ months a year in Florida (my mother included), what's the big deal?
It would be far easier to 'settle' an American in Toronto or Regina than someone from Thailand or Romania. That much is just plain common sense.

Although 'common sense' and politics are not to be used in the same sentence.

 

[kEiThZ]

BrandonTO416

Hey, If I have said something absolutely offensive point it out. I don't feel that stating that no special treatment should be given any particular group of applicants is in any way offensive or directed at you.

I agree with you that processing of immigration applications should be sped up. And in certain categories it is. My mom's cousin who has an MBA was in T.O. six months from the day he submitted his application. He has a skill that the government of Canada has deemed in high demand and so he got fast tracked.

It is unfortunate that you have to wait that long but I highly doubt that the policy will change. Even if the backlog was cleared (and that's going to take time, though the government is working on it), Canada would still likely restrict annual intake. Canada can only absorb around 300 000 immigrants a year....and many would argue we need to reduce that so that we can take better care of the ones who are here already. That's roughly 1% of our population, which is one of the highest quotas in the world. This would translate into the US absorbing 3 million annually or the EU taking in 5 million.

As for your situation, I think its fairly easy to get student visas to Canada, though you would have to pay student fees....this is no different than a Canadian studying in the US. And with the new policy announced by Harperites today, there is a good chance that you would be given permanent residency after studying in Canada. Why not re-apply to study in Canada and use your associate degree for advanced standing? You should note that associate degrees don't count as university degrees in Canada...they are more likely community college diplomas...a likely reason as to why you were denied immigration previously.

And I am touched that you want to be Canadian so badly. I think such a passionate individual would be a great addition to Canadian society. As for choosing TO....hey I love my hometown....but you can't be serious....Vancouver, Halifax and Ottawa (in the summer) are much nicer......

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm all for open borders between the US and Canada. Judging by the hundreds of thousands of Canucks that spend 4+ months a year in Florida (my mother included), what's the big deal?
It would be far easier to 'settle' an American in Toronto or Regina than someone from Thailand or Romania. That much is just plain common sense.

Although 'common sense' and politics are not to be used in the same sentence.

I believe the issue is reciprocity. I don't think its fair to throw the doors open to US migrants without the US reciprocating. And the US will never agree to it until we decide to tow the line on their foreign policy (for example...Cuba).

 

[Brandon716]

I'm all for open borders between the US and Canada. Judging by the hundreds of thousands of Canucks that spend 4+ months a year in Florida (my mother included), what's the big deal?
It would be far easier to 'settle' an American in Toronto or Regina than someone from Thailand or Romania. That much is just plain common sense.

Although 'common sense' and politics are not to be used in the same sentence.

To be honest, I'm not sure I advocate totally open borders where its just a rubberstamp and you're in. Canada needs to retain its sovereignty and I support that very much.

But the process has to be rational. An American should be able to apply for a work permit, even without a job, and have it approved for a specified period of time. So long as a criminal background check comes up clean, it should be approved, no questions asked. During the time an American immigrant on a temporary work permit is living in Canada, they should make an effort to find employment, prove they intend to stay, and then apply for permanent residency.

A permanent application, if applied for, should be processed within a reasonable 3-6 months so long as the paperwork is in order (FBI security clearance in hand, references from employers, bank statements proving income and stability).

That's my take on it.

The current process is insane, and I don't like the "new" process the Conservatives just put in place. Gives officers the right to reject applications at will before even reviewing them. That's certainly going to speed the process up, but it makes it far less fair. They are basically making an unfair system even more unfair in the name of speeding up applications. I welcome the speed, I cringe at the thought my application wouldn't even be considered.

There should be a process, it shouldn't just be someone goes across the border and instantly has access. But the process needs to be reasonable, today it is not reasonable.

The Canadian government only accepts about 2,000 Americans a year out of the 250,000 to 300,000 people it accepts any given year. That's a very low percent.

And the question I ask is if the government really believes Americans who want to come north want to convert Canada to just another American set of states, because it couldn't be further from the truth. People move and immigrate for a purpose. People who move from the United States to Canada do so because they don't prefer conditions in the US, otherwise there would be no reason to move.

I mean come on, being protectionist against Americans who want to genuinely become Canadian citizens isn't helping anyone. And vice versa, I believe Canadians who are disenchanted with Canadian life should feel free to move south.

Immigration from the US would only strengthen Canadian sovereignty, because virtually every American I know who wants to move north wants to do so because of a purpose, or a series of reasons. Its anything BUT trying to make Canada more "American". People want to go from the US to Canada because they are generally unhappy with the US so I don't see what the threat over sovereignty is.