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Well, as hegemonies go, I'd rather be under American imperial rule than China's or Russia's.
What nation in history spent billions of its own money to rebuild its vanquished enemies (Germany/Japan)?
It could be argued that it was the ruinous foreign policies of Great Britain and the other world powers that dragged the U.S. out of its isolationism in the '40s to become the world's cop. They still pay for more than half the budget of the UN, despite the fact that the UN bashes America at every turn.

America is not perfect, to be sure. I can't think of another country that is capable of such peaks (Lunar conquest, for example) and troughs (white supremests in the South, for example.)

I cannot believe anyone can support what Saddam did to his fellow countryme over the past 20, 30 years. What has followed since the Iraq invasion 5 years ago has been a mixed disaster, but most Iraqis I have spoken with are glad Saddam is gone.

These deserters are not in the same league as Vietnam deserters. These guys volunteered!
 
First off, even if the mission was not sanctioned before, the UN has now given the United States the responsibility to rebuild Iraq. I want to see them finish that job, instead of leaving behind anarchy for the Iraqi people.

I agree that the mission has been a cock-up from the start and there was overt political interference. And I agree it was a strategic blunder. I work in the office and know the staff that advised Chretien that there were no WMD in Iraq. I would never question the competence and judgement of these folks. It is fairly clear, when one sees the evidence how close the call was....people forget that he actually used WMD against the Kurds, the Iranians and the Shia. Heck, even the French thought he had some, they just didnt want to go to war and risk their oil contracts. Canadian military officers (moi aussi) just operate in different ways and owing to our interactions with the UN, just trusted the inspection process more. But it was still a gamble at the end of the day.

It is also clear that the Bush administration was determined to go to war right from the start. And that they politicized the Operational Planning Process, a real sore point amongst most US military officers I know. All my US contacts can't wait to see the Bush administration leave office. My one colleague took an exchange posting to Canada because she didnt agree with serving in Iraq. And when graduating classes of the service academies are leaving wholesale after their obligatory service, you know something is truly wrong.

All that being said. What's done is done. What should the world do now? Leave these people...just because GB messed up? Mot are you that willing to throw the Iraqi people under the bus just so your anti-western rhetoric comes true and you can say "Oh look how bad the Americans are."

I grew up in the Middle East. I have seen the highs and lows of these people. I don't want to see them suffer any more. Ask any Arab, as much as they resent the US, they want to see the job finished. They want a strong and united Iraq to emerge from this....not a weak state under the thumb of Iran.

As for these deserters, there is a case to be made if they participated in the original invasion if one believes that it was illegal. Even then they could have requested non-combat service, or to serve in Afghanistan. I can't see any reasonable commander refusing that request if made properly. They chose to run. That too, when the mission had changed from the invasion to peace-making/rebuilding with express UN Security Council consent. They abandoned their fellow soldiers and the Iraqi people when they were needed the most.

And why Canada? Why not Mexico? Last I heard the Mexicans are nice welcoming people who are only hours away from the bases in California and the southern US. These people have deliberately chosen Canada because we are a convenient first world refuge whose laws they thought they could manipulate. Thankfully, the courts saw their efforts for what they were....attempts to politically manipulate our laws. What these deserters want is no different than the Bush administration breaking various US laws in the states because its politically convenient.

I will repeat again. This is not in Canada's interest. It does not concern us. Nor should it. Accepting draft dodgers and refusing to participate in Iraq is one thing. Accepting deserters would send the message that Canada is seeking to actively undermine the foreign policy of our best friend and neighbour. Friends can disagree, but they shouldn't work to undermine each other. We will have some incredible challenges to deal with, when the next administration comes to power (ie Arctic sovereignty, trade issues, energy exports, etc.). I don't think its good to start off, by slapping the Americans in the face with an overt political decision. People who advocate such policies, so go out to BC and chat with the lumber mill workers or talk to our workers in the steel sector...I am fairly sure, they don't want to be sacrificed to compensate for the bone-headed decisions of a few American youth.
 
One down...
http://news.opb.org/article/2602-us-army-deserter-deported-bc-first-sent-home-canada/
U.S. Army Deserter Deported From B.C.; First Sent Home By Canada

Two down...
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/08/13/6435941.html
U.S. deserter ordered deported

...and 200 more to go.

Canada's refugee system is designed to protect those in fear of their lives. Robin Long, the first of our hopefully 200-person long list of deserter deportees is scheduled to be courtmartialed in September. The maximum allowable penalty for a guilty verdict on this charge is three years confinement, forfeiture of pay, and a dishonorable discharge from the Army. That's hardly a fear for your life refugee situation.
 
One down...
http://news.opb.org/article/2602-us-army-deserter-deported-bc-first-sent-home-canada/
U.S. Army Deserter Deported From B.C.; First Sent Home By Canada

Two down...
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/08/13/6435941.html
U.S. deserter ordered deported

...and 200 more to go.

Canada's refugee system is designed to protect those in fear of their lives. Robin Long, the first of our hopefully 200-person long list of deserter deportees is scheduled to be courtmartialed in September. The maximum allowable penalty for a guilty verdict on this charge is three years confinement, forfeiture of pay, and a dishonorable discharge from the Army. That's hardly a fear for your life refugee situation.

I am not revelling in his situation. I truly feel sorry for him. It is unfortunate that he chose to get us involved. But our laws exist for a reason. Refugee status should be accorded to those truly freeing repression, not to someone who feels the need to escape obligations he made to his nation.
 
Not every one sees it so black and white. Soldiers did not forsee the US invading Iraq, creating a civil war where they would be cannon fodder until maybe the next election. The reason for the war was claimed because of 19 hijackers, none of which were from Iraq. 15 of them were from Saudi Arabia.

Of course soldiers did not foresee the invasion of Iraq, but as soldiers (who voluntarily joined the military), there was always a possibility that they could end up fighting a war. It's part of the job description. If there is an issue with the reasons for initiating that war, it is best to take that up with the elected government in that country. No military could be effective if soldiers would pick and choose which conflict they would be involved in.

Canada correctly opted to not get involved in Iraq. That does not take away from the fact that Saddam was a ruthless and murderous dictator.
 
One down...
http://news.opb.org/article/2602-us-army-deserter-deported-bc-first-sent-home-canada/
U.S. Army Deserter Deported From B.C.; First Sent Home By Canada

Two down...
http://www.torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2008/08/13/6435941.html
U.S. deserter ordered deported

...and 200 more to go.

Canada's refugee system is designed to protect those in fear of their lives. Robin Long, the first of our hopefully 200-person long list of deserter deportees is scheduled to be courtmartialed in September. The maximum allowable penalty for a guilty verdict on this charge is three years confinement, forfeiture of pay, and a dishonorable discharge from the Army. That's hardly a fear for your life refugee situation.

And they know we are Christians by our love......

Hypocrites.
 
http://www.gazette.com/articles/months_39649___article.html/carson_penitentiary.html Fort Carson deserter sentenced to 15 months in prison

Not a bad sentence for deserting your post and comrades, and leaving others to fill your boots. In Britain the government is proposing the sentence for military desertion be life in prison.

This is hardly a refugee situation, as Pfc. Robin Long was in no way under threat of persecution.
 
http://www.gazette.com/articles/months_39649___article.html/carson_penitentiary.html Fort Carson deserter sentenced to 15 months in prison

Not a bad sentence for deserting your post and comrades, and leaving others to fill your boots. In Britain the government is proposing the sentence for military desertion be life in prison.

This is hardly a refugee situation, as Pfc. Robin Long was in no way under threat of persecution.

If the Brits did that, British deserters might have a case for asylum in other countries. I don't think that will pass muster in the EU.
 
http://www.gazette.com/articles/months_39649___article.html/carson_penitentiary.html Fort Carson deserter sentenced to 15 months in prison

Not a bad sentence for deserting your post and comrades, and leaving others to fill your boots. In Britain the government is proposing the sentence for military desertion be life in prison.

This is hardly a refugee situation, as Pfc. Robin Long was in no way under threat of persecution.

I hope this means the world doesn't have to hear anymore Jesus persecution nonsense from you guys. At least Robin Long actually exists.
 
I hope this means the world doesn't have to hear anymore Jesus persecution nonsense from you guys.
What? Who here has every written about Jesus persecution? How come you keep peppering religion into this thread? If you feel that religious folk are somehow hypocritical in not providing help to deserters, that's fine, but no one in this thread has presented themselves as being religious. Even myself, a occasional church goer has never once said anything religious on UT. So, why all the noise about religion from you?
 
I am simply carrying on the discussion of making light of "under threat of persecution". The Jesus myth people use false persecution all the time. To the point of wearing small dead Jesus dolls on their necks. Now that a real live human situation of persecution arises, these same Christians (US and Canadian - Republican/Tory & Tory lite) are the ones causing of this man's persecution.

It says alot about the phoniness of some versions of Christianity, in fact I think if a certain kind of Christian weren't running the government in both the US and Canada, Mr. Long would be free today and the nations would be much better off.

From a dear friend of mine

"When Federal Justice Anne Mactavish refused to stay the deportation of war resister Robin Long, she wrote that Long had not proved that he would suffer "irreparable harm" if deported.

Long was court martialed last Friday, August 22. He was sentenced to 15 months in a federal penitentiary and given a dishonourable discharge. In the U.S., this is the equivalent of a felony offence. Long will be ineligible for student loans, mortgages, and most employment opportunities. He will be unable to return to Canada, where his two-year-old son lives. I believe most reasonable people recognize this as "irreparable harm", especially when one considers that Long's only "crime" was refusing to participate in an illegal and immoral war.

On June 3, a majority in the House of Commons called on the Government to allow Iraq War resisters to stay in Canada. When will Prime Minister Harper respect the majority's decision? Why does he insist on ignoring the will of the Canadian people?"
 
I believe she meant irreparable harm to his person (physical body).
 

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