[Brandon716]

All I can say is that if you guys (walt, hydrogen, other similar beliefs) are "too intelligent" to understand how gullible certain youth can be, then it shows your own character. Some people are very easy to be talked into something with misinformation for any number of reasons.

Furthermore, Canada should welcome these people as productive members of society. This isn't even about a political statement, its about Canada welcoming more people to a young nation whose future is far more important than the present.

IMHO Canada is doing a poor job accepting peaceful people who want to be there. Its only the second largest landmass of any nation on earth for crying out loud. With only 33 million people your goverment should welcome practically any American who is sick and tired of the status quo down here.

I honestly could care less who gets elected be it Obama or McCain, I've wanted to be in Canada for many years and this summer I'm coming up no matter what my visa status is for a longer period of time.

I can only imagine what THESE people feel, given they face real persecution.

And certain people don't care? LOL

I still like Canada a lot, but sometimes it surprises me how hard it is to get basic things accomplished. Every western nation has an insane immigration program regardless where its located.

If no one agrees with my opinion or thinks I don't have a right to say this not being a Canadian citizen, oh well. Canadians who realize how complex LEGAL immigration is would be surprised.

 

[Hydrogen]

Furthermore, Canada should welcome these people as productive members of society. This isn't even about a political statement, its about Canada welcoming more people to a young nation whose future is far more important than the present.

Pardon me, but there's like a five year waiting list to get into this country, a list made up of people who want to be here, and not because the country became a convenient excuse.

All I can say is that if you guys (walt, hydrogen, other similar beliefs) are "too intelligent" to understand how gullible certain youth can be

So who is responsible for the gullibility of these adults? If they can't figure out that a military organization is a military organization, then I can't quite sympathize with them. Being an adult has responsibilities and consequences, and these people clearly did not think to inform themselves of something so obvious.

 

[Mot]

Stop Loss is a form of draft. Most of these people already served one tour (which is all every soldier was required to do in VietNam). They are forced to go for back for 2 and 3 tours and are told they will not get their much needed pay bonus if they do not. These soldiers were duped into fighting in an illegal immoral war and they realized this after joining up and serving in Iraq. Many were forced to do immoral acts and denied conscientous objector status. The Canadian military allows it's soldiers to choose not to go into a war zone. The US does not. All of these soldiers have a story about how they were lied to by unscrupulous recruiters and enticed by a signing bonus. Some got caught up in the post 9/11 extreme nationalism. They admit they were naive, but the important thing is they opened their minds and learned from it.

I am saddened to see the lack of support and outright hostility to these men and women. I hope people take the time to read their stories and learn more about them.

If you are interested in learning their side of the story, please go here.

http://www.resisters.ca/index_en.html

 

[Mot]

Pardon me, but there's like a five year waiting list to get into this country, a list made up of people who want to be here, and not because the country became a convenient excuse.

From the US the process is about 18 months. If it were any other country we would be taking in these soldiers as refugees but because they are from the US it's appears a different matter. These soldiers witnessed and were asked or forced to commit war crimes.

So who is responsible for the gullibility of these adults? If they can't figure out that a military organization is a military organization, then I can't quite sympathize with them. Being an adult has responsibilities and consequences, and these people clearly did not think to inform themselves of something so obvious.

Some of these soldiers were from career military families. Most lived in solid conservative red states where the spoon fed propaganda and dangerous nationalism can be very overwhelming. We should be rewarding them for standing up and refusing to participate in an illegal and immoral war of choice. If Corey Glass is deported Harper and Bush and their ideology are the only ones who will win and they will use that win to further their agendas.

 

[Mot]

National Guard troops have served in Korea, Vietnam and the first Iraq war. It's hard to believe anyone could have confused them with a strictly humanitarian organization like, for example, the Red Cross.

In Vietnam there were only 8700 guard members serving. The national guard is being abused now by the Bush Administration.

2.6 million American troops served in Vietnam so you had a .003% chance of being in Vietnam as national guard soldier (It's exactly why Bush was a guardsmen) So historically the guard was not used for combat in foreign wars the way they are today.

http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwatl.htm

As you can see below tens of thousands are currently serving in Iraq.


http://www.ngb.army.mil/About/default.aspx
During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam. Over 75,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called upon to help bring a swift end to Desert Storm in 1991.

Since that time, the National Guard has seen the nature of its Federal mission change, with more frequent call ups in response to crises in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the skies over Iraq. Most recently, following the attacks of September 11, 2001, more than 50,000 Guardmembers were called up by both their States and the Federal government to provide security at home and combat terrorism abroad. In the largest and swiftest response to a domestic disaster in history, the Guard deployed more than 50,000 troops in support of the Gulf States following Hurricane Katrina in 2005. Today, tens of thousands of Guardmembers are serving in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, as the National Guard continues its historic dual mission, providing to the states units trained and equipped to protect life and property, while providing to the nation units trained, equipped and ready to defend the United States and its interests, all over the globe.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Actually, it does, if those are your orders.

Please re-read my post. I said that doesn't mean you must willingly take part. That doesn't mean you won't be forced, unwillingly. The difference is how you conduct yourself, and how you report back to the inevitable investigation.

As for people being too poor, ignorant (in the true sense) or naive when they join the military, well, that's how all army recruiting has always been done since ancient times. There's no exit clause. The US Army is not the peace corp or disaster relief, it's a state sanctioned killing machine.

The Islamic world had just declared war on the USA through Saudi-funded (and oil backed) terrorism. Where did you think the US army was going to go? It's going to Afghanistan to get Bin Laden (still waiting, of course), and then to Iraq to finish off Saddam, and then likely to Iran to crush more Muslims, and then if Syria or even Saudi Arabia messes up, they'd better watch out too.

Any one who knows US history knows that America, when threatened or attacked, always takes a super aggressive approach with emphasis on fighting the enemy on his turf outside of the USA, a lesson the Jihadists seem to have forgotten. The people who signed up for service after Pearl Harbour didn't expect, I believe, to be sent on domestic disaster relief, but fully expected to be sent overseas to kick some Japanese ass. Sure, some got sent to fight the Germans (and a few Italians, pre-1943), but that's war, you go where you're ordered to go.

 

[Admiral Beez]

During Vietnam, when a draft was in effect, good principled people objected and came to Canada,

Actually, well off white kids like Andy Barrie at CBC fled to Canada, meaning that some poor black guy without the means to flee took his place. If I was a draft dodger I'd always be asking myself the true cost of my act. Sure I saved my bacon, but much as a firefighter who skips work, someone else has to step in your shoes to do the work and accept the risk.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In Vietnam there were only 8700 guard members serving. The national guard is being abused now by the Bush Administration.

2.6 million American troops served in Vietnam so you had a .003% chance of being in Vietnam as national guard soldier (It's exactly why Bush was a guardsmen) So historically the guard was not used for combat in foreign wars the way they are today.

http://members.aol.com/warlibrary/vwatl.htm

As you can see below tens of thousands are currently serving in Iraq.


http://www.ngb.army.mil/About/default.aspx
During the Vietnam war, almost 23,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called up for a year of active duty; some 8,700 were deployed to Vietnam. Over 75,000 Army and Air Guardsmen were called upon to help bring a swift end to Desert Storm in 1991.

Since that time, the National Guard has seen the nature of its Federal mission change, with more frequent call ups in response to crises in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the skies over Iraq. Most recently, following the attacks of September 11, 2001, more than 50,000 Guardmembers were called up by both their States and the Federal government to provide security at home and combat terrorism abroad. In the largest and swiftest response to a domestic disaster in history, the Guard deployed more than 50,000 troops in support of the Gulf States following Hurricane Katrina in 2005. Today, tens of thousands of Guardmembers are serving in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, as the National Guard continues its historic dual mission, providing to the states units trained and equipped to protect life and property, while providing to the nation units trained, equipped and ready to defend the United States and its interests, all over the globe.

The Guard is being called upon more because the US is not using conscription to enlarge the regular forces. They need more troops, so they're using the ones they've got, including Guards. Assuming Obama gets the US out of Iraq and Adghanistan, I wonder if recuitment for the Guards will decline or increase now that US overseas deployments are fewer.

 

[Hipster Duck]

This isn't even about a political statement, its about Canada welcoming more people to a young nation whose future is far more important than the present.

IMHO Canada is doing a poor job accepting peaceful people who want to be there. Its only the second largest landmass of any nation on earth for crying out loud. With only 33 million people your goverment should welcome practically any American who is sick and tired of the status quo down here.

Ha! Remember when I told you back in that other thread that you, as an American, will begin to visualize Canada in American ways? You are basically advocating Manifest Destiny right now.

 

[Mot]

The Guard is being called upon more because the US is not using conscription to enlarge the regular forces. They need more troops, so they're using the ones they've got, including Guards. Assuming Obama gets the US out of Iraq and Adghanistan, I wonder if recuitment for the Guards will decline or increase now that US overseas deployments are fewer.

The guard and reservists are being used in a form of underhanded conscription by the US Government because there is no draft and that same black soldier you supported in your rant against the CBC host is todays national guard member.

The US response to being attacked on 9/11 and going into Iraq is equal to attacking Mexico because of Pearl Harbor. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. 15 of the 19 plane hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, none were from Iraq. Iraq was a basically a secular nation (in comparison to it's neighbors) with a bad dictator.
Al Qaeda was not in Iraq until after the invasion. Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin were not allies prior to 9/11.

WWII was the last just war and not comparable to the current unjustified Iraq war. No soldier should be asked to die based on lies and incompetence of their leadership.

For those who support this cause please do the below:
Please take a moment tocall Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion at 613.996.6740 or 613.996.5789
Tell him you want the Liberal Party...
• to support the Parliamentary motion to allow Iraq War resisters to remain in Canada,
• to oppose the deportation of people of conscience who have resisted an illegal war, and
• to support the will of the Canadian people (not sure about this anymore based on this thread), not Stephen Harper’s decision to deport war resisters, and not the U.S.’s war agenda.

 

[Hydrogen]

Some of these soldiers were from career military families. Most lived in solid conservative red states where the spoon fed propaganda and dangerous nationalism can be very overwhelming. We should be rewarding them for standing up and refusing to participate in an illegal and immoral war of choice. If Corey Glass is deported Harper and Bush and their ideology are the only ones who will win and they will use that win to further their agendas.

These soldiers should be protesting in the United states rather than using Canada as a refuge. Maybe their actions there will ignite interest as coming to Canada will do nothing. Standing up for their own beliefs and principles should be its own reward.

The United States is hardly a hegemony. There is more than enough opportunity to think otherwise than what one is told. And coming from a career military family is immaterial. If these individuals cannot weigh out potentials and possibilities and think for themselves, maybe they ought to be wards of the state.

The fact of the matter is that the Guard has been used in foreign military action before, and that Vietnam resistors were conscripts. That's very different from a full volunteer military. In the case noted above, it is clear that the individual in question is quite naive. That is his problem.

Since that time, the National Guard has seen the nature of its Federal mission change, with more frequent call ups in response to crises in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, and the skies over Iraq...

And of course once they were in the Guard these individuals could not just pick and choose whatever mission they would be involved in - depending how they felt about it from one week to the next.

 

[Mot]

These soldiers should be protesting in the United states rather than using Canada as a refuge. Maybe their actions there will ignite interest as coming to Canada will do nothing. Standing up for their own beliefs and principles should be its own reward.

I sought refuge here. My family would most certainly not be better off in the US continuing to fight a losing battle and the same goes for these soldiers. They came here to stand up for their beliefs and principles without being punished for it. They object to the atrocities being committed in Iraq and no one should go to jail for standing up against war crimes.

The United States is hardly a hegemony. There is more than enough opportunity to think otherwise than what one is told. And coming from a career military family is immaterial. If these individuals cannot weigh out potentials and possibilities and think for themselves, maybe they ought to be wards of the state

The government and media managed to fool a majority of Americans into thinking Iraq had something to do with 9/11, in fact in this very thread a Canadian seems to think so. I can only guess that a majority of Americans should be wards of the state if using your example

[/QUOTE]The fact of the matter is that the Guard has been used in foreign military action before, and that Vietnam resistors were conscripts. That's very different from a full volunteer military. In the case noted above, it is clear that the individual in question is quite naive. That is his problem.[/QUOTE]

It's not voluntary when you are forced to do 2 and 3 tours of war duty, something the US never did before to it's military. The US is pushing an underhanded form of conscription on these men and women.

And of course once they were in the Guard these individuals could not just pick and choose whatever mission they would be involved in - depending how they felt about it from one week to the next

They chose to defend the US, they didn't choose to be lied into a war of choice, they didn't choose to be used as pawn in a political game, they did not choose to be thrown into a US created civil war.

 

[Hydrogen]

I sought refuge here. My family would most certainly not be better off in the US continuing to fight a losing battle and the same goes for these soldiers. They came here to stand up for their beliefs and principles without being punished for it. They object to the atrocities being committed in Iraq and no one should go to jail for standing up against war crimes.

How does coming to Canada stop atrocities in Iraq? Some of these individuals are not allowed to stay in Canada because they did not meet the immigration regulations established in this country. Does that make Canada culpable in your opinion?

The government and media managed to fool a majority of Americans into thinking Iraq had something to do with 9/11, in fact in this very thread a Canadian seems to think so. I can only guess that a majority of Americans should be wards of the state if using your example

Americans I know are against the Iraq war. They were against it from day one. They didn't need to think lock-step with what they heard in the media or from their governments. I imagine they are not alone.

It's not voluntary when you are forced to do 2 and 3 tours of war duty, something the US never did before to it's military. The US is pushing an underhanded form of conscription on these men and women.

There is a court system in the United States, isn't there? Maybe that would be the appropriate place to challenge this.

They chose to defend the US, they didn't choose to be lied into a war of choice, they didn't choose to be used as pawn in a political game, they did not choose to be thrown into a US created civil war.

They also signed on knowing that they could not pick and choose what they would or would not be involved in.

 

[Hydrogen]

I sought refuge here. My family would most certainly not be better off in the US continuing to fight a losing battle and the same goes for these soldiers. They came here to stand up for their beliefs and principles without being punished for it. They object to the atrocities being committed in Iraq and no one should go to jail for standing up against war crimes.

How does coming to Canada stop atrocities in Iraq? Some of these individuals fleeing here are not allowed to stay in Canada because they did not meet the immigration regulations established in this country. It's as simple as that.

The government and media managed to fool a majority of Americans into thinking Iraq had something to do with 9/11, in fact in this very thread a Canadian seems to think so. I can only guess that a majority of Americans should be wards of the state if using your example

Americans I know are against the Iraq war. They were against it from day one. They didn't need to think lock-step with what they heard in the media or from their governments. I imagine they are not alone. Somehow they were capable of thinking independently, and they must have received information from somewhere.

It's not voluntary when you are forced to do 2 and 3 tours of war duty, something the US never did before to it's military. The US is pushing an underhanded form of conscription on these men and women.

There is a court system in the United States, isn't there? Maybe that would be the appropriate venue to challenge this.

They chose to defend the US, they didn't choose to be lied into a war of choice, they didn't choose to be used as pawn in a political game, they did not choose to be thrown into a US created civil war.

They also signed on knowing that they could not pick and choose what they would or would not be involved in. Regardless, they have a right to dissent and refuse to go. All that I am pointing out is that there are consequences.

 

[Observer Walt]

Actually, well off white kids like Andy Barrie at CBC fled to Canada, meaning that some poor black guy without the means to flee took his place. If I was a draft dodger I'd always be asking myself the true cost of my act. Sure I saved my bacon, but much as a firefighter who skips work, someone else has to step in your shoes to do the work and accept the risk.

True enough, Admiral, and that's one of the things that stunk to high heaven about Vietnam. The upper or middle class kids went to school for years and years and got the so-called "student deferment", or they got on the bus to Canada (fairly easy to do in those days apparently). Meanwhile the black guys or working class whites went to Vietnam to get their asses shot at.

I also agree with your statement than when one person leaves his post, someone else has to take his place. If you're a volunteer, however, you had the choice to sign up or not to. Once signed up, you should carry out the tasks which you clearly accepted. If you then choose not to, because of conscience, you have to be prepared to accept consequences (some time in prison or some type of alternative service). I see nothing unfair about that.