Glenco
Senior Member
Last time I was out that way there was development started in this area. Maybe someone else could check it out.
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- Thread starter Daveography
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TravellingChris
Active Member
The Gorman extension was originally planned to have been built by now. But the city decided (correctly, I think) that the Metro Line to bring NAIT and Royal Alex onto the system was a higher priority, so the funding was redirected there.
Castle Downs has been wanting and needing LRT service for decades and should have gotten the next project after the Valley Line West. But the city chose to prioritize the Capital Line South to Heritage Valley: not because of greater need but because it will bring with it a new O&M facility as well as the fact that land acquisition was easier.
Castle Downs will be the next priority after the Capital Line South Phase I. The good news (from a transportation perspective) is that the interminable delays in building the Southwest Hospital mean that there will be less temptation to defer the Metro Line to Castle Downs yet again in favour of extending the Capital Line from Ellerslie to the hospital.
Gorman's on the list, but because the northeast is at least regionally served by LRT (and has been since 1981) the city's priority for expansion will be elsewhere.
You are correct about the route, however. I had an e-mail exchange with LRT Planning staff a number of years back in which I noted that the Gorman routing made no sense when it would not serve major destinations like Manning Town Centre which have subsequently developed.
TravellingChris
Active Member
TOD has never worked in Edmonton. Century Park never lived up to expectations: progress has been laughably slow and the site, which was supposed to include tall towers, is instead a cluster of relatively low-rise buildings. The redevelopment of the east side of Fort Road south of 129 Avenue was also presented as a golden opportunity for transit-oriented residential due to the proximity of Belvedere station: again it was a bust.
Even McKernan-Belgravia station was controversial as some residents feared its construction would open the floodgates for McKernan to be redeveloped with multi-storey buildings and apartment complexes: instead, to the relief of the neighbourhood, the area has largely remained single-family (the station has been open for 14 years already).
dunno
Active Member
^
I don't totally disagree with you, but I think Edmonton at the time when these stations were built was in a different place. TODs were nothing new in the late 2000s when Century Park was developing, but it was new for Edmonton, and the planning decisions as well as the local culture at the time wasn't as conducive to it. As ugly and stroad-y as it is, Clareview is probably a more successful TOD. And it's extremely popular for people who live on the Capital Line to trek out for errands like Superstore, while others explicitly choose it as a home for its LRT access.
But, things are changing. Even before the Valley Line is built, we're already seeing denser development spurred along, such as in Holyrood and West Glenora. There's also, finally, a lot more being built at Century Park. The area around Stadium LRT has also significantly beefed up density, having the most new high-rises outside of the UofA/Garneau and Downtown-Oliver built in recent years. The stuff around Stadium reminds me of a baby version of Skytrain-style TODs, just without the mall component tying it together.
Does anyone know what the actual plans are for South Campus? ETS is designed to have it be a major transfer point already and in addition to obvious LRT access, a lot of buses go there. Which is interesting because the area is very sparse and there doesn't seem to be an immediate plan for increased density. I realize the farm is there, but that's to the SW, and there's a lot of parking lots and brownfield sites elsewhere.
I don't totally disagree with you, but I think Edmonton at the time when these stations were built was in a different place. TODs were nothing new in the late 2000s when Century Park was developing, but it was new for Edmonton, and the planning decisions as well as the local culture at the time wasn't as conducive to it. As ugly and stroad-y as it is, Clareview is probably a more successful TOD. And it's extremely popular for people who live on the Capital Line to trek out for errands like Superstore, while others explicitly choose it as a home for its LRT access.
But, things are changing. Even before the Valley Line is built, we're already seeing denser development spurred along, such as in Holyrood and West Glenora. There's also, finally, a lot more being built at Century Park. The area around Stadium LRT has also significantly beefed up density, having the most new high-rises outside of the UofA/Garneau and Downtown-Oliver built in recent years. The stuff around Stadium reminds me of a baby version of Skytrain-style TODs, just without the mall component tying it together.
Does anyone know what the actual plans are for South Campus? ETS is designed to have it be a major transfer point already and in addition to obvious LRT access, a lot of buses go there. Which is interesting because the area is very sparse and there doesn't seem to be an immediate plan for increased density. I realize the farm is there, but that's to the SW, and there's a lot of parking lots and brownfield sites elsewhere.
What did the LRT planning staff say?
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TravellingChris
Active Member
Essentially that the LRT would be following the existing CN ROW for much of the extension's length, which would make it more practical to construct than veering off earlier. They also said that there was a future vision for the Gorman area (a TOD which makes as little sense to me now as it did then) and that connecting commercial destinations like Manning Town Centre to the LRT network was not a priority.
dunno
Active Member
I'm not against a TOD there per se, but I don't see how having it isolated from the plethora of existing amenities makes sense. It's almost as if the City has an idea of a TOD, and of course that doesn't include car-centric big box stores, and so it wants to create this little island of transit-friendly, dense development. Which, having that there is fine, but what are the people going to do who live there? Any commercial in the area would pale in comparison to the range of amenities at Manning Town Centre and proximity to it would probably be a huge benefit to those in the area. It has a movie theatre, hardware stores, an outdoors store, clothing, groceries, restaurants, and bars. Regardless of how car-oriented it is, people nearby, closer to the LRT, will be using those amenities, so it makes sense to make it as accessible as possible. And for people outside the community, it makes sense to have this stuff well-connected. I don't think the City realizes that there's decent ridership already in people around the Capital Line going to the big box stores in Clareview. It only makes sense for the same to continue for Manning. Just like if there's ever a 23 Ave BRT, I'd expect a stop at South Common.
JuliallThat
Active Member
Let's hope that when the NE expansion is eventually moved forward, they reopen the opportunity to redesign the route and open up the discussion. It's been so long, that whatever was decided 15-20 years ago really isn't as relevant now.
Even if all they did was put the station (or another station) on the south side of 153 Ave, near the corner of 34 St so that it's on the corner opposite of manning centre. At least then it's close, not multiple blocks away.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
I agree 100%, and I can attest to the claim regarding the use of the Capital Line to shop at the stores in Clareview. For my first year here, when I didn't have a car, I did a lot of my shopping in Clareview, because it was more convenient to take the LRT and go there than pretty much anywhere else in Edmonton.
TODs that are connecting areas surrounding relatively well developed commercial areas should take advantage of it, instead of trying to create something that will take decades to integrate to the fabric of the city (if that ever happens). TODs should adapt to the cities they're being developed in (and sadly, Edmonton is an essentially big box store city).
TravellingChris
Active Member
I'm not in favour of TODs in Edmonton because it seems clear that in our experience they represent more wishful thinking than anything else. SkyTrain has been a catalyst for redevelopment and densification in the Lower Mainland, but the TODs here have grossly underwhelmed. As I've noted the Century Park development started off with exciting plans but never came close to the original vision. The Belvedere TOD was a massive failure. And both were in mature areas with very convenient LRT access. I highly doubt a TOD in the Gorman area is ever going to develop into anything significant, which is why I think routing the line the way they're proposing is a mistake.
I think you route the line where people have already proven that they want to be able to go, and in this case it should run past Manning Town Centre. LRT should serve destinations that are already popular rather than sites that may eventually develop into a destination decades into the future. As I've also noted elsewhere on this board, one of the strengths of Edmonton's LRT system is that it does hit a lot of key destinations like Southgate, the U of A, NAIT, MacEwan, Kingsway Mall and the Clareview shopping area. The Valley Line, for all its flaws, will hit MWTC, Grey Nuns, Bonnie Doon, Unity Square, Jasper Gates, Meadowlark, the Misericordia and WEM. There is also potential for the Valley Line to be extended west to the future Rec Centre and the Market at Lewis Estates, and south along 50th Street to Watt Common and RCSS Harvest Hills.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
That could actually justify an attempt to push for TOD in those key areas. They're somewhat trying with Bonnie Doon and MWTC, but I do think that, eventually, both WEM and Southgate will realize the potential to make boatloads of money with redeveloping their huge swats of land into residential and offices (especially for things like medical services, and other amenities).
dunno
Active Member
TODs in Vancouver also took a while to come to fruition. We're only seeing massive changes and new development now because of decades of momentum, in a market twice the size. You have two examples - Belvedere and Century Park. The latter has sort of failed to launch, although there is finally development, it's still small relative to what it should be, similar to Century Park a decade ago. Century Park, on the other hand, is finally getting fairly built out. You also ignore the fact that we have a pretty beefy TOD already at Stadium/East Jasper and initial TOD-style development before LRT even opens at Holyrood and West Glenora. I wouldn't be so quick to write off TODs here.
I guess time will tell.
TravellingChris
Active Member
I go based on past performance. The Century Park failure (which is what I consider it to be) is difficult to swallow because if any TOD should have succeeded in Edmonton this would have been the one. A one-seat ride to the U of A and downtown, a high-visibility site on two major access routes (23 and 111) and busy existing transit centre were all in its favour. Plus the fact that it was a complete redevelopment of the site gave plenty of options and potential to reimagine the site (whereas at Southgate development would have to take place around a very busy existing mall). Century Park has nowhere near the density that it should have or that the community was promised.
The other site I think has tremendous potential is the Bonnie Doon site--the fact that this is a failing mall (though not to the extent of Heritage) gives a lot of options. The proximity to the U of A and downtown should give added impetus. However, I fear that we may end up seeing a repeat of the Century Park site in that we won't get the density the site deserves. The fact that the LRT stop is underbuilt (it's a bus shelter instead of the full elevated station that should have been constructed on the site) means that if development ever does take off and the density significantly increases the stop will quickly become inadequate.
BrettB
Active Member
I don't know. In Vancouver, it took Metrotown 25 years to take off and Brentwood about 30 years, and that's with immense housing pressures
fungus_eater
New Member
@TravellingChris, I don't think any TODs can ever be a true "failure" unless the whole area gets dismantled. Once you develop a permanent rail network in the TOD area, there will always be opportunities for the surroundings to evolve and develop/redevelop over time into denser capacity. The problem is just getting the work done which can take a very long time.
Century Park and Belevdere are underwhelming right now and still works in progress, but will these areas look the same and have the same density in the next 10, 20, 30 years? I don't think so. I think it will grow much more vibrant.
Century Park and Belevdere are underwhelming right now and still works in progress, but will these areas look the same and have the same density in the next 10, 20, 30 years? I don't think so. I think it will grow much more vibrant.
Barnaby
Active Member
I just visited Century Park to check out Le Louvre, and it was pretty pleasant. Nice little coffee shop, commercial buildings and a grocery store nearby, etc. I don't think the TOD is more than 10 years away from being a relative success.
I was just in Richmond at the end of the line, and the entire area is actually just a quiet suburban neighborhood with a few brand new towers and a shopping mall. It doesn't take much to get momentum.
I was just in Richmond at the end of the line, and the entire area is actually just a quiet suburban neighborhood with a few brand new towers and a shopping mall. It doesn't take much to get momentum.
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