[dt_toronto_geek]

CityTV and Rogers just suck, I recently found my way back to watching their news at 6 but I'm moving back to CTV for my local fix. Every night at the opening of their news show at 6pm (which actually starts at 5:59pm) there is a shot from above of their ugly studio with that mess of HVAC on the roof, clearly they have no shame. Even the "city" graphics used for TV spots and during their morning and news shows are outdated by 5 or more years. They just don't give a crap.
I sure miss the Znaimer days.

 

[Silence&Motion]

This is somewhat off topic, but it's almost painful how much better Europe is at making parking garage entrances that aren't gaping monstrosities. Maybe Rogers would have put more effort into their building if the east side of Dundas square looked a bit more like this:

And not like this:

I supposed we'd have to give up our SUVs before that happens. Oh well.

 

[taal]

That's one of the least intrusive parking lot entrances that I've seen in Toronto!

Not sure what the issue is, the area around it needs sprucing up sure but the entrance it self is fine!

 

[Silence&Motion]

That's one of the least intrusive parking lot entrances that I've seen in Toronto!

That's not really tough competition to beat. The entrance still manages to cut the whole east and south-east side of the square off from the street. That's a pretty huge dead space for what is supposed to be Toronto's main square. The thing is, it doesn't have to be this way, but it's indicative of how the cars-first approach continues to feed into even our most urban-minded designs.

Here's another example of parking garages done right: http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=...4.843946,-0.577367&spn=0.002716,0.006866&z=18

 

[Redroom Studios]

I hear your point, but even if the parking garage entrance wasnt there you still have a permanent stage that would otherwise showcase a blank wall and still cut off the square from this direction. The thing that bugs me more is the sprucing up issue with all those garbage dumpsters out in plain sight. Now, dont get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of European urbanism... just pointing out that its not strictly a parking garage issue here.

 

[maestro]

Toronto has examples of that parking lot entrance. No need to travel all the way to Europe. (damn google) The context of the surroundings couldn`t be more different either

 

[gabe]

CityTV and Rogers just suck,

Sort of related, but let's not discuss this too much as this thread is about the building itself...

The Rape of City-TV

 

[EXgeMMy]

CityTV and Rogers just suck, I recently found my way back to watching their news at 6 but I'm moving back to CTV for my local fix. Every night at the opening of their news show at 6pm (which actually starts at 5:59pm) there is a shot from above of their ugly studio with that mess of HVAC on the roof, clearly they have no shame. Even the "city" graphics used for TV spots and during their morning and news shows are outdated by 5 or more years. They just don't give a crap.
I sure miss the Znaimer days.

Again perhaps I'm a little bias since I'm an insider but that opening shot lasts less than 5 seconds and to base your judgment of a newscast on exposed HVAC's which has nothing to do with the news aspect is a bit of a stretch.

Moses has been so far removed from programming for such a long time, yes Moses was innovative at the time but the reality is programming has changed and what people want on tv has changed.

There is a reason why MuchMusic barely plays music videos anymore.

Does it suck, yes however that's just the way it is.

Let's just keep the talk to the building itself. Recently they painted the interior staircase walls to give it some colour so it doesn't have an asylum feel to it anymore. Of course the colours are brutal.

 

[Silence&Motion]

The Bordeaux example that I linked to is more similar, and still they manage to integrate a parking garage into a city square without creating very much dead space. But the underlying issue is the same for all the cases: can you install a parking garage entrance within a city square without cutting it off from the street physically or creating dead space that people will avoid? The two French examples have shown that this is possible, at least to a greater extent than is achieved at Dundas Square.

As a principle, city squares are supposed to be the CENTRE of neighbourhoods. They are not supposed to have backstage areas. They are not supposed to turn their backs in any particular direction. Dundas square, despite its many merits, has failed on this account. And as a result, buildings like the City-TV headquarters will always be cut off from the square and under less pressure to present themselves in a very engaging way.

 

[greenleaf]

The Bordeaux example that I linked to is more similar, and still they manage to integrate a parking garage into a city square without creating very much dead space. But the underlying issue is the same for all the cases: can you install a parking garage entrance within a city square without cutting it off from the street physically or creating dead space that people will avoid? The two French examples have shown that this is possible, at least to a greater extent than is achieved at Dundas Square.

As a principle, city squares are supposed to be the CENTRE of neighbourhoods. They are not supposed to have backstage areas. They are not supposed to turn their backs in any particular direction. Dundas square, despite its many merits, has failed on this account. And as a result, buildings like the City-TV headquarters will always be cut off from the square and under less pressure to present themselves in a very engaging way.

Do you have a suggestion for what Y&D Square should have done for this design (presuming we have to have a parking lot under the square and that we want a flexible stage on the square)?

 

[EXgeMMy]

The Toronto Star just posted a video with Hume critiquing the square

http://www.thestar.com/videozone/951298

 

[condovo]

^^ So disheartening. It's like every time anyone tries to bring a little urban sophistication to this city, they're beaten back by the hicks. Put that sh*t away, boys!

 

[Torontovibe]

This is somewhat off topic, but it's almost painful how much better Europe is at making parking garage entrances that aren't gaping monstrosities. Maybe Rogers would have put more effort into their building if the east side of Dundas square looked a bit more like this:

I supposed we'd have to give up our SUVs before that happens. Oh well.

Why would they just leave those big garbage bins out there like that? Couldn't the city have found a better way to store them or build something to cover them up? (a small shed) Christ, if you're going to design a major square, do it right!

As for Rogers/City TV, they have no excuse for ruining the view of the square. That building already had ugly HVAC units, on the roof but they put in new ones that were double the size, making a bad situation, much, much worse. Yeah, they should be ashamed but the f%#kers seem to have no shame.

God, that stage is UGLY! It also needs to go.

 

[Silence&Motion]

Do you have a suggestion for what Y&D Square should have done for this design (presuming we have to have a parking lot under the square and that we want a flexible stage on the square)?

There may not have been much that the architects could have done on their own. I'm not an expert, but I bet there are a series of by-laws, planning regulations, or industry standards that force entrances to be a certain size and slope. In addition, the entrances are probably designed to handle large North American-sized cars and SUVs. These are contextual factors that exist in this city that architects don't have to deal with in Europe.

That said, there are a few design characteristics we can identify in the two French examples I posted that result in their parking garages being less intrusive to street life: (1) the entrance and exit are separate and distributed across the square in order to dilute their presence. (2) The entrances are bordered by very low walls and have no roof, which means that the view between the street and the square is unobstructed. (3) Because they run parallel to the street, they fit in with the existing street grid rather than intruding directly into the square. (4) They are extremely narrow and short - so much so that they look more like our subway entrances than anything else in this city. This is the most important part. Just look at the parking garage entrance to Nathan Phillip Square on Bay street. It meets design characteristics 1, 2, and 3. However it's about three or four cars wide, and about 50 meters long. The entrance in Bordeaux is one car wide and about 20 meters long. It makes all the difference.

Achieving these design features may or may not have been feasible for Dundas square. What is evident is that it looks like the designers pretty much gave up on the south-east corner very early on by shoving all the "practical stuff" there. The western side probably benefited as a result. As I said, there are many merits to this square. It's really up to you how much weight you want to place on its flaws.

^^ So disheartening. It's like every time anyone tries to bring a little urban sophistication to this city, they're beaten back by the hicks. Put that sh*t away, boys!

Who are the hicks?

even if the parking garage entrance wasnt there you still have a permanent stage that would otherwise showcase a blank wall and still cut off the square from this direction... just pointing out that its not strictly a parking garage issue here.

If the parking garage entrance were less imposing, the architects would have had more flexibility in designing the stage. My hunch is that the stage emerged as a design feature in response to the presence of the parking garage entrance, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[MetroMan]

The garbage bins don't need to be there at all and neither do the storage of chairs and tables. Brown & Story designed a dedicated area on Floor -2 for exactly this purpose. It appears that it was cut out to accommodate a few more parking spaces. The mighty dollar wins again.