joel in to
New Member
That's not a one story podium... there's a 20 foot tall recreation facility being framed in steel right now that will sit on top of that concrete. The end result will be a decent 3 story equivalent streetwall.
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3Dementia
Senior Member
^ the problem isn't streetwall... it's street animation. Who wants to wander by a private club/amenity or podiums that have one convenience store and entrance to a condo? The grocery store is there to service the "new" population but it's hardly a destination for anyone else.
I really don't get it.... how our planners can understand the value of scale and animation at the street for planned mega projects like West Donalds (crosses fingers) and East Bayfront, and allow giant, one-dimensional "private" amenity structures and podiums to meet what could be a great new avenue (FT York Blvd).
Even the new park may say "welcome to Cityplace" more than welcome to Toronto.
It ain't rocket science.....
As ridiculous as this may seem to some, the jumbled, faux historical mishmash of planned neighbourhoods like Markham Centre have the potential to grow into real, human scale neighbourhoods... if the trees grow and the vendor profile becomes eclectic enough ... people will indeed start to see this as a destination, rather than just an outdoor mall. Small streets, jumble of architecture et al... in time it will look lived in and the scale will be inviting.
Toronto actually has reasons and references to build this kind of streetwall... namely every successful neighbourhood in the city.
Excuse the crappy render but you can see what I mean... there's no reason that the density of Cityplace towers cannot be maintained, the glorious private superclubs set back away from the street, and a mixed character streetwall established...
I really don't get it.... how our planners can understand the value of scale and animation at the street for planned mega projects like West Donalds (crosses fingers) and East Bayfront, and allow giant, one-dimensional "private" amenity structures and podiums to meet what could be a great new avenue (FT York Blvd).
Even the new park may say "welcome to Cityplace" more than welcome to Toronto.
It ain't rocket science.....
As ridiculous as this may seem to some, the jumbled, faux historical mishmash of planned neighbourhoods like Markham Centre have the potential to grow into real, human scale neighbourhoods... if the trees grow and the vendor profile becomes eclectic enough ... people will indeed start to see this as a destination, rather than just an outdoor mall. Small streets, jumble of architecture et al... in time it will look lived in and the scale will be inviting.
Toronto actually has reasons and references to build this kind of streetwall... namely every successful neighbourhood in the city.
Excuse the crappy render but you can see what I mean... there's no reason that the density of Cityplace towers cannot be maintained, the glorious private superclubs set back away from the street, and a mixed character streetwall established...
alklay
Senior Member
What a great illustration of what Cityplace could and should be.
Waterloo_Guy
Active Member
Wow, that's encouraging. That could well be the future of Cityplace. Fingers crossed.
3Dementia
Senior Member
^I fear it's too late... there's not much chance for even a bit of infill because the entire u/c footprint that meets Fort York Blvd is.... as described earlier.
Perhaps the city housing precincts to the extreme west will do something resembling a "neighbourhood".
Perhaps the city housing precincts to the extreme west will do something resembling a "neighbourhood".
Those 3 renderings speak a million words. Great work 3D.
3Dementia
Senior Member
Thanks Ed. The "work" is crappy but the point it makes is just common sense.
This is downtown for heaven's sake. Despite the island mentality that seems to pervade the planning (and design) for Cityplace west... hemmed in by the Gardiner, Spadina, Bathurst/Ft. York and the grand canyon (aka rail corridor)... the site is so massive that there is no reason a "real" downtown-style neighbourhood couldn't be established.
If the Gardiner is going to stay standing, I'd even add a ribbon of mixed use medium rise buildings (with plenty of n/s waterfront access of course) behind the new park on the south perimeter.... ridiculous? No. Might as well caress the park on all sides and define an urban neighbourhood further, if the distressway is going to stay there.
This would be a case where "turning your back" to the Gardiner makes some sense. It would actually be more of a magnet to travel the rest of the way to the waterfront if the south was animated beyond grass and trees. I'd happily sit on my new balcony above the Gardiner... with views to the new park, the city and the waterfront.
This is downtown for heaven's sake. Despite the island mentality that seems to pervade the planning (and design) for Cityplace west... hemmed in by the Gardiner, Spadina, Bathurst/Ft. York and the grand canyon (aka rail corridor)... the site is so massive that there is no reason a "real" downtown-style neighbourhood couldn't be established.
If the Gardiner is going to stay standing, I'd even add a ribbon of mixed use medium rise buildings (with plenty of n/s waterfront access of course) behind the new park on the south perimeter.... ridiculous? No. Might as well caress the park on all sides and define an urban neighbourhood further, if the distressway is going to stay there.
This would be a case where "turning your back" to the Gardiner makes some sense. It would actually be more of a magnet to travel the rest of the way to the waterfront if the south was animated beyond grass and trees. I'd happily sit on my new balcony above the Gardiner... with views to the new park, the city and the waterfront.
casaguy
Senior Member
Exactly!
The reason so many of us are crapping all over CityPlace is because from what we've seen so far, they are creating a brand new neighbourhood that's not really a neighbourhood. It's just a collection of buildings.
They had a complete blank canvas to work with and instead chose to build a development that LOOKS just like St. Jamestown.
I hope someone from Concord sees your mock up. Thank you for sharing it with us.
Andrew3D
Active Member
September 04/07
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Wrong...everybody knows they have one Subway and one dry cleaners, not one convenience store.
I agree with your other points, though.
Andrew3D
Active Member
While no Annex, City place offers about the same variety as many of the areas down at the waterfront. It's coming a long way and though not perfect we shouldn't judge it merely on what's been built on the East side. Many people seem to ignore the fact that the streets around the existing city place towers have most likely been set up the way they are to move traffic not slow it down. There is more to it then a coffee shop and and convenience store. They have a new restaurant/sports bar which always seems busy even when no games aren't on and a hand full of other retail outlets. I doubt the city wanted to create an area that would turn into any more of a destination then it already is with the Rogers Centre, Convention Centre, Air Canada Centre, and the the CN Tower all within it's immediate surroundings. Correct me if I'm wrong but it's the western portion that will act more like a new community with schools, grocery stores, parks, and more retail.
3Dementia
Senior Member
Andrew you didn't read the post. It's the blank canvas west of Spadina that I've addressed. This is where the crime should have been avoided.
There was No SkyDome, no nutin' there.
P.S. Khatru, I had no idea there was a subway at Cityplace. Where does it go?
There was No SkyDome, no nutin' there.
P.S. Khatru, I had no idea there was a subway at Cityplace. Where does it go?
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Oh, the entrance is right at Front & Spadina...just walk east through the wind tunnel, past the rusty metal things at the convention center, dodge the crazy taxis and GO-getters near Union, and you're there.
3Dementia
Senior Member
^I said "where does it go?"... not where is the entrance.
spaced
Active Member
Amazing work 3D. Your point is really well made. I hope that other strips of the city such as Queen W. don't have skyscrapers (or even 10-12 story) right up against the street in the future--but instead keep the 3-6 story scale and place towers behind them. I think your point is well made about street animation. Your mock-ups also show that this type of planning would be more attractive and have so much more character.^ the problem isn't streetwall... it's street animation. Who wants to wander by a private club/amenity or podiums that have one convenience store and entrance to a condo? The grocery store is there to service the "new" population but it's hardly a destination for anyone else.
I really don't get it.... how our planners can understand the value of scale and animation at the street for planned mega projects like West Donalds (crosses fingers) and East Bayfront, and allow giant, one-dimensional "private" amenity structures and podiums to meet what could be a great new avenue (FT York Blvd).
Even the new park may say "welcome to Cityplace" more than welcome to Toronto.
It ain't rocket science.....
As ridiculous as this may seem to some, the jumbled, faux historical mishmash of planned neighbourhoods like Markham Centre have the potential to grow into real, human scale neighbourhoods... if the trees grow and the vendor profile becomes eclectic enough ... people will indeed start to see this as a destination, rather than just an outdoor mall. Small streets, jumble of architecture et al... in time it will look lived in and the scale will be inviting.
Toronto actually has reasons and references to build this kind of streetwall... namely every successful neighbourhood in the city.
Excuse the crappy render but you can see what I mean... there's no reason that the density of Cityplace towers cannot be maintained, the glorious private superclubs set back away from the street, and a mixed character streetwall established...
Too late for cityplace, unfortunately.